The Good Intentions Podcast

Ep 34 - Age Proof - How to Live a Longer, Healthier Life - Professor Rose Anne Kenny

• Kelly Harvarde

Share episode

Does old age fill you with dread? What about dying - how do you feel about that?  Why do some of us live longer than others?  What does the latest science teach us that will help us not only live longer lives but also to live fitter, healthier, and happier lives even in our ‘twilight’ years?

Well, this week my guest has all the answers where ageing is concerned - she’s Professor Rose Anne Kenny, who has 35 years of experience at the forefront of ageing medicine. 

She is a professor of Medical Gerontology at Trinity College Dublin, director of the Mercer’s Institute for Successful Ageing and founding principal investigator for the Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing. Her book Age Proof - The New Science of Living a Longer and Healthier Life - draws on her own pioneering research and she’s in Dubai at the Emirates Literature Festival leading discussions on a life well lived.

As you would expect, Professor Rose is an absolute goldmine of information when it comes to ageing and we had such an enlightening conversation about everything from misconceptions about ageing to loneliness and we also discussed how purpose plays a huge part in how we age.

80% of our ageing is under our control and a positive attitude is scientifically proven to help us age well. I loved how much science and data Professor Rose brought to the table, along with a healthy dose of practicality and useful tips.

Please enjoy our conversation.

Follow me, and the Good Intentions podcast:

https://www.instagram.com/kellyharvarde/

https://www.instagram.com/goodintentionsuae/

Find Professor Rose here:

https://tilda.tcd.ie/people/profile/rkenny/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rose-anne-kenny-b5615a10/

Immerse yourself in some of the books we discussed: 

Professor Rose Anne Kenny - Age Proof

https://www.amazon.com/Age-Proof-Science-Living-Healthier/dp/178870505X

Matthew Walker - Why We Sleep

https://www.amazon.ae/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144324

Malcolm Gladwell - Outliers

https://www.amazon.ae/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0141043024/

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Good Intentions, the podcast where we explore the world around us to find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm Kelly Harvard and I'm on a mission to spread positive stories that will inspire you to live a more meaningful and connected life.

Speaker 2:

What about dying? How do you feel about that? Why do some of us live longer than others? What does the latest science teachers that will help us not only live longer lives, but also to live fitter, healthier and happier lives, even in our twilight years? Well, this week my guest has all the answers where aging is concerned. She's Professor Roseanne Kenny, who has 35 years of experience at the forefront of aging medicine. She's a professor of medical gerontology at Trinity College, Dublin, director of the Mercers Institute for Successful Aging and founding principal investigator for the Irish Longitudinal Study on Aging. Her book, age Proof, the New Science of Living a Longer and Happier Life draws on her own pioneering research. And she's in Dubai at the Emirates Literature Festival. Leading discussions on a life well lived, as you would expect, professor Rose is an absolute goldmine of information when it comes to aging. And we had such an enlightening conversation about everything from misconceptions about aging to loneliness. And we also discussed how purpose plays a huge part in how we age. 80% of our aging is under our control, and a positive attitude is scientifically proven to help us age well. I loved how much science and data Professor Rose brought to the table along with a healthy dose of practicality and useful tips. Please enjoy our conversation. Thanks so much for joining me today, professor Rose, I'm really excited to talk to you on the Good Intentions podcast.

Speaker 3:

Thank you. Thank you. Kelly.

Speaker 2:

You are gonna come and, uh, feature at the upcoming Emirates Literature Festival, which is, uh, almost upon us. Very exciting. Could you just start by telling us a bit more about the book that brought you here or that is bringing you here and why you wrote it?

Speaker 3:

So, I'm really looking forward to the Emirates uh, literature Festival. It looks like a wonderful lineup and I'm enthusiastic to share some of the learnings from my book age, how I, to writing The short version is I've been over 35 years as a clinical researcher in the aging space. So that means that I'm a clinician, a doctor, professor of medical dermatology and Trinity College in Dublin. But I also do an lot of research in the area. Sometimes my clinical observations lead to research or I've also been involved in a very large population study where we're understanding what the aging process looks like now for over a 12 year period, we've been following the same people and it's very, very detailed. Not just health issues, but a lot of social questions are asked of, of participants and economic questions. It's almost 10,000 people and they're randomly selected from the population. So whatever observations we make, we can generalize. So it's a very, very rich data and the book is about sharing that data. Ireland is one of a number of countries now sisters, countries who are running longitudinal studies in aging. And we've built those studies so that there is a common core of questions in order to compare different countries experience of aging and the factors which are driving successful aging or issues with aging, et cetera. And of course, as everybody listening knows, a health issue doesn't occur in isolation. It's always complicated by either of a health issues or something within a family circle or something. Social or economic circumstances play a big, big role in health. So that's why the book was written to share this rich tapestry of factors that influence the aging process.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. I'm absolutely fascinating. I'm fascinated by the whole sort of subject. So I'm, I'm really personally in this as well. I can't wait to get a copy when you come up. I'm, I'm waiting to get my copy so that you can sign it. So, um,

Speaker 3:

<laugh>, so Kelly, but just, just to say, of course everybody should be, cause there's only one other alternative to getting older<laugh>

Speaker 2:

<laugh>. Precisely, absolutely. And, and there's so many misconceptions about it as well, and it's such an interesting topic to sort of delve into. I mean, one of the ones I love, which I think you you talk about in your book is that only 20% of aging comes from our genes. 80% of it is lifestyle and attitude. You know, where you often hear people say, oh yeah, well, you know, I'm this way and you know, my mom was this way and my dad was this way. And actually that's just not true. So how does our attitude and lifestyle and, and all those things, how do they affect our aging primarily?

Speaker 3:

So this is one of the really good news stories that 80% of the process of aging is actually under our control. It's dependent on our health behaviors and other behaviors. Now we know about the health behaviors very well, very well established is the positive benefit of physical activity, diet, et cetera. We can talk about some of the other elements, but that's hugely important cause most people have exactly that misconception. You've nicely outlined there. Most people assume it's genes. And I see this frequently in clinical practice where patients will come in with heart disease and their lifestyle behaviors are still poor. I mean, they're o overweight, excessive alcohol, sometimes smoking, et cetera. But they brush it off and say, it doesn't matter in my case because my mother lived 89 and my father to 90, I don't need to worry. So that misconception is, is out there very much and it's really important and it's important at an individual level. So we are in control of our aging process more or less. 80% of it for younger people is related to our behaviors. If you make it to 80 and you have a family history of longevity, then about 40% of the rest of your life is driven by them, that genetic makeup. So that's that, uh, that scenario.

Speaker 2:

Gosh. So there's some really positive sort of statistics there that we are control, which yeah, which I hadn't really, I, I feel like the narrative around it is very different to that. And, and I'm really glad that you're exploring how different this really is. We can start to change that. And is this kind of what we mean like about when you say like attitudes, is this what we mean about like positive aging? Because we see a lot about this. Like what is positive aging mean? Is, is it having this better attitude and taking more responsibility?

Speaker 3:

So that question has always fascinated me. And we were able to work with psychologists to actually identify valid questions we could act, to try and determine a little bit more about this very thing as what is positive aging and does it really make any difference. We actually embedded in the questions, um, questions around your attitude to aging. And just to cut to the chase on that, it's, you know, do you feel your chronological age? Do you perceive yourself as being your chronological age? That's the number of candles on your birthday cake, or do you perceive yourself as being younger? And I have, you know, I, I perceive myself as being about 20 years younger than I actually am. It always fascinated me that whole question around positivity. Cause very frequently we see people who have a very positive attitude and everything above them, also more youthful. We explored that and bottom line, if you have a positive attitude and you feel yourself to be, you believe yourself to be younger than your chronological age, we've shown with repeated sampling that in fact your aging process is slower Wow. Than other people who feel their chronological age. But you might say that's because the people who feel their chronological age of arthritis or other diseases or disorders, the way the data set is designed, we were actually able to adjust for that. So I can tell you that independent of having diseases or disorders or whatever else, your attitude independently influences the pace of aging at a biological level. Isn't that wonderful?

Speaker 2:

Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. A very good reason to kind of, you know, all these things we see about being grateful and having a gratitude journal, which, you know, sometimes I kind of, I'm just like, I'm so busy. Do I have to also be thankful for everything all the time? But I guess, well

Speaker 3:

It's also, it's also important that, uh, at a societal level we're aware of this because sometimes we get negative vibes and messages, say for the, from the media for example. And everything is so youth orientated. But that has sort of a subclinical negative impact on older persons approach and attitude to aging. It must do. If you're constantly being bombarded by negative messages, then they embed themselves. And it's difficult for an individual to break through all of that and still be positive. So I think it's important that that is a, that we're aware of that as a society. And look, if it influences your biology, it's a cheap way of delivering health, behavior prevention, you know, prevention for diseases through health behaviors.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm.<affirmative>. No, absolutely. And do you think, I mean, I completely agree with you about the media and the messaging and the narrative that we hear and that we're told. I mean, and I know that's sort of like the UK and I'm sure Ireland, it's quite a sort of drum beat of negativity. Correct. So are there any countries, I mean, did you look in your study, are there any countries that are better at this than we are in terms of like that narrative and how they approach?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's a really good point. I think the USA is getting a lot better, believe it or not, because the proportion of people who are getting older is increasing proportionate really in society. And they've a lot, their voice is loud, but Nordic countries are also very positive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Northern European

Speaker 2:

Countries. I went to a seminar a couple of years ago, which I still talk about cause it was so fantastic. It was about positive aging. And I kind of went in feeling a bit negative about it and I was like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not feeling so great and I'm, I'm really interested in knowing more about it. And there was a lady in in the room who basically was like, I can't wait to get older. It's fantastic. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. She saw it as such a beautiful thing and, and I couldn't quite, she had an accent but I couldn't work out. And I said, where are you from? And I think she was finished and she basically then explained how in her life she was like, look, in my community, in my town, all the people, they're very integrated with us and you know that they go hiking and they live an active lifestyle. And she said, you know, that I look at them, they're aspirational to us. That is how we see it. Whereas obviously in other countries it's very different. You know, older people are kind of locked away and you'll see and all it's this decline that you go into. And she explained it. I was like, wow, this is a completely different mindset that I had just obviously haven't been exposed to myself.

Speaker 3:

I think there's a movement now to change that narrative. Yeah. And to repurpose it towards positivity. And it's really very important, uh, that we do that because otherwise it makes it difficult for individuals. But, you know, uh, because the demography is changing so much, I mean, we are living, we are actually living longer, three, three months every five years. The average life expectancy has doubled over the last two years. And next year, 12% of the total world population will be over 65. And obviously, you know, quarter of the population in Germany is over 65 now, over 65, 65 isn't old anymore. But I'm just giving you some sense of we are living longer, average life expectancy is increasing. We dunno exactly why. There's lots of things put forward. Like new technologies, new medicines, less stress, believe it or not. Better diets, more awareness of what health, how we can manipulate our own health, et cetera. But it, it does, that doesn't appear to be the whole answer. And maybe there are other reasons why we're, we, we seem to be living longer. The curve is pretty linear in most countries. Um, in other words, it doesn't seem to be tailing off and seems to be continuing to extend. That's life expectancy. And of course fertility rates are dropping worldwide. So I think it was in 2012, the number of people, fortunately over the age of 65, surpassed those under the age of five worldwide. So proportionately, there are more people increasing all of the time over the age of 65 compared to younger cohorts. Now there may be issues with respect to labor force participation down the road in some countries with respect to that. But overall it means that older persons are getting a louder voice simply because of numbers. And I think that will change the narrative around ages.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, sounds, sounds like a fantastic step in the right direction. I completely agree. And there's a section in your book which I really loved, which is all about this sort of socializing and how this benefits us as humans, which sounds great. Right? And obviously human human connection is everything. It's part of the reason why I, I do this podcast. Like I think with Covid a lot more people realize perhaps we're a bit more introverted than we thought we were. So how can we kind of embrace this kind of socialize and get the best outta it without having to, so, you know, if, if you don't necessarily naturally mingle, you know, love to go out, love to meet with people, like how can we get the best out of this?

Speaker 3:

So first of all, we are what's called gregarious animals. We need each other and we've evolved to need each other. And that's why we've evolved in communities and why communities is so important. You know, if you think of the hunter gatherer model, which we've all evolved from, and those who went and hunted, if they didn't need the company of others and weren't gregarious, could have kept the meat at it and moved on and left the others waiting in the village who were minding the youngsters, et cetera, without food. But we've evolved to need each other and to need each other's company, et cetera. And loneliness as an emotional state has also evolved with that painful loneliness actually accelerates dementia, for example, painful loneliness contributes to a higher prevalence of cancer and heart disease. So it's bad for us biologically. And we've evolved that that is the case. So it's incredibly important. Friendship is really important and very important for the whole process of eating. And if you go out with your friends for a night, you have a good laugh. Laughter is part of all of this. Like laughter is our way of socially bonding and you have a good laugh at night, you know, you feel really good the next day. And that's not a chance thing. That's because biologically that night of engagement and enjoyment has actually influenced your biology. I actually think that having a good social network and retaining that and retaining an interest in life and a purpose in life are probably the most important things that we can do to age well. And if you think about people, you know, in their nineties who appear to be in really good or shape and appear happy with themselves, they have these components. You know, they're, they're, they're engaged, there's variety in their lives, they have social networks, et cetera, and they have a positive attitude. Just pause and and look at people you know, who have lived for a long time. Very few of them are are miserable people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's such a good point. Uh, I read, um, a really fantastic piece in Time Magazine. It was a couple of years ago now. It was a front cover story. And then I think so, you know, you know how has, as we as personally as I get older, I kinda fantasize about moving to the country and maybe I'll have a little farm. And it actually said that the happiest older people are people that live in cities like quite big cities as well. You know, you think you wanna escape from all this. It's noisy. And it said it's because of the connection. It's because you might get up in the morning, go to get your paper, go to go drink, you'll connect with people, you'll see people, you can then do social activities. Cause they tend to be in a center of cities. I'm not saying that they don't happen in the countryside. I hate countryside. Which I just thought was so interesting because, you know, I think I've been programmed to think, okay, you know, I'll recede as I get older and I'll move away and it'll be as peaceful living on the side of, actually no, this isn't good for us. This connection is so important.

Speaker 3:

No, it's hugely important. That's a really good point. Cause a lot of people make that mistake. They retire and they move and you're notman in the states is lovely work around our social networks and even what you've described there, paperman, you know, in the local shop that's part of your network, you know, we've got our close network where our family and friends, et cetera. Then we have friends who we might meet on the way to the paper shop and stop and have a chat with et cetera. You know, so your circles are very different. And then you've got the people in the shop itself, et cetera, but they all matter and they all influence your state, your biological state. So if you move away to an area where you don't know anyone, and this is not uncommon when people retire, you have to start again. You have to start developing and building those relationships again. Some people are very good at that. But my word of caution would be don't underestimate how important those transient social engagements are and networks that you've become used to in your immediate environment.

Speaker 2:

Gosh, that's so interesting, isn't it? There's, um, when I go into my office building, there's a couple of security guards on the front desk and we always say good morning. And I always chat to them whilst I'm waiting for the elevator. And I really look forward to seeing them when I, yeah, it's these kind of small connections actually. I live for as much as obviously, you know, my husband and my child and my best, as, best as

Speaker 3:

Correct. So the earlier people start to develop friendships and retain friendships the better. And the title of the book is age Proof. And unfortunately that in one way attracts an older audience. But I really want get the message to in their twenties, thirties and forties. It's then that you have to start shaping your future, um, in order to have the maximum benefit when what inevitably happens happens.

Speaker 2:

Interesting. So fascinating. So, um, you mentioned, you talked about it very quickly, just earlier. So purpose. Like if you have a purpose and a reason for getting up in the morning, and I love this stat, like you'll live about seven years longer. I mean, incredible. So how can we find our purpose? Cause I think purpose often sounds so lofty. Like, you know, I'm finding a cures cancer, I'm planning to climb a mountain, but how can we just find a purpose in our day-to-day that gives us something and gives us a reason to sort of get up in the morning that will help us live this more fulfilled

Speaker 3:

Life? So it doesn't really matter what your purpose is as long as you meaningfully pause and identify it as purpose, um, and even make a list. So today I'm going to pose down the garden, out those shelves, go for a long walk, swim in the ocean, whatever, but have a purpose for the day. It's getting up listlessly and just moving through the day without having clear focus of what you are trying to achieve with the day that isn't particularly good for us when we're working. It's different because you're very clearly orientated towards your work, focused on that. And that gives you great purpose. And also don't underestimate the social engagement associated with one of the issues with retirement is that suddenly all of that matrix is taken from you and not infrequently people feel they've lost purpose once they give up work. So you have to be prepared for that and then to focus on, okay, what's my purpose today going be? What's my purpose today gonna be? It's really, there's great evidence to show that if you volunteer, if you're part of a, of an organization which is helping others, that gives you great purpose and a really good feel, feel good feeling emotionally, which is good at a now our work has shown that in fact, if you don't start engaging with volunteering before retirement, you're very unlikely to do it after retirement. So it's good to start this process early, but to know that purpose isn't a just about work or what we normally identify with, it can be anything as long as you make that thing your purpose. And in Okinawa and um, Sardinia, which are two of the blue zones where proportionately people live longer and healthier than on mainland Japan or mainland Italy, for example. In those two circumstances, they have special words in their language for having a purpose for the day. Wow. They recognizing how important,

Speaker 2:

It's, gosh, that's beautiful. I love it. So we all know that we're gonna be living longer and you know, we're thinking, talking about things like purpose and, and, and finding a reason. And I'm ing our days. I mean, how can we plan and prepare for these sort of next decades? Like if it, if you, if I'm in my thirties or my forties, like, is is it worth starting to think about it now if I'm like, what can I do, plan

Speaker 3:

Slow now. Everything we've talked about. So creating a circle of friends is, is important. Engaging is important at all ages. Um, having a purpose is really important at all ages. It's just that when we're younger, they're almost automatic within our lifestyles. Not necessarily so, but almost. And then as, as we get older, maybe by not being aware of their import, we're inclined to let them sleep. But of course the earlier you start the better. And it's not just preparation for the future, it's about now it's about being healthier now, feeling better now preventing illnesses and preventing negative mental health issues now. Yeah,

Speaker 2:

No, very good point. How do you personally feel about getting older? I have to ask you.

Speaker 3:

Oh, what, the more I read about this, the more I realize, oh God, I wish I'd known that 20 years ago.<laugh> definitely that, definitely that ire the work I'm doing. So I hope I never stopped doing that. Um, it's raised my awareness about the importance of volunteering and I've volunteered, I'm on different foundation boards, et cetera, to raise money for different, um, charities. So that's the case. I would be, and I'm very informed about the whole process. Am I really looking forward to it? Um, I would be tentative about the process. Definitely. And the thing that worries me most is I see our health services fragmenting unfortunately, and I know that comorbidities, that illness has increased with advancing aging. I know how you can decelerate that, prevent it, delay it, but it is inevitable at the moment. And I, I'm concerned about access to good healthcare when it's needed. And I'm a physician, so

Speaker 2:

Gosh. Yeah, you're seeing, well you're seeing it and living it every day I guess. So you yes, it's

Speaker 3:

In Ireland, the proportion of people over the age of 80 is going increase fourfold is increasing fourfold over the next 20 years. And I see a big, big issue in terms of our healthcare delivery. It's the same in the United Kingdom in most of Europe. And I'm sure itll be the same as populations age in other countries.

Speaker 2:

And I wanted to ask you about this. So the UAE Dubai have you to Dubai before? Is it this be? I

Speaker 3:

Have indeed, yes, I have, yes. Yeah, I liked it very much actually.

Speaker 2:

You came from a couple of events, didn't you? I remember, um, reading about them. So it's a very young, it's a very young country, Dubai, a young city. It's actually quite rare to sort of see older, you know, elderly people here. So how can we sort of find like healthy models of what older looks like if you are not necessarily seeing it sort of on a day-to-day basis? Do we have to look outwards or do we have to motivate ourselves? Is there a way of doing that?

Speaker 3:

So that's a really good question actually. I think it's reasonable to hypothesize that it's in predominantly youthful societies that you would, would actually encounter most ageism and negative attitudes towards aging because you don't, as you outlined, have pure models of aging on which to base your assumptions. And I think probably awareness and as has happened in other countries which have higher proportions of older persons, it will come with time. But it's difficult for those who are aging in those societies. And you know, earlier on when we were chatting, you made a really good point about women versus men and aging. And there's no question that, um, particularly in that sort of a suc societal structure, it's more challenging for women because of attitudes and those attitudes feed back into an individual self-perceptions of how they're aging and people in and become less engaged because of those perceptions and cause of their own perceptions of how they're aging. That is certainly the case and it's something we need to be aware of. I, I think and more supportive of women, um, aging and peer models are so, so important in that context. And to see women as we do men for virtues other than physical attributes, that is a huge, huge issue in my opinion.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think, I mean the, the UAE is doing a huge amount in terms of sort of supporting women. She Muhammad passed law where now, um, every business has to have, you know, a woman on the board. Like there's a lot to do to sort of push women forward I thinks about, yeah, I mean moving away from the sort of appearance based culture. Absolutely. And just as a woman yourself, I mean, how do you find that look, you know, I'm, I'm my time's marching on for me and I'm always fi I always feel like there's a bit of a balance. You know, I'm trying to live a sort of healthy spiritual connected life with meaning, but you know, I still really like to put mascara on in the morning. Like how do you kind of balance sort of this sort of external with the internal and the whole aging process yourself?

Speaker 3:

I think it's really important to smart<laugh> and your first few seconds with somebody determine their approach to you. And if you're pleasant and smile really early on, it makes a huge difference. And I think it's, it's circum ma and everything. I do use makeup. It's not that I don't use makeup, et cetera, but I just think that there's something deeper than that innate that we engage with. And smiling is one of those things and that comes back to gregarious behaviors and leading people and feeling warm towards people and knowing that you can have a, an engagement with that person. I mean, I work in a hospital sometimes it's crazy and you have hardly time to brush your hair, but it doesn't matter as long as your attitude is

Speaker 2:

Positive. Well it's so interesting you say that because there's a fantastic, um, psychologist called Sean Acor. He's a professor of happiness at Harvard. Um, anyway, he's been on on Oprah, he's that kinda guy. He, he's very prolific. He cites a study and it was in a hospital in the States and they asked all the doctors to smile at people. They said, you've gotta smile like 10 times a day at patients, people, whoever you see. That was all they asked them to do. They didn't change anything. And then they surveyed the patients afterwards and said, you know, how did you feel about your experience? Everybody had a fantastic experience at this hospital. Even people that were not necessarily very well that were quite unwell, healing rates went up. All they did was smile at people. And he cites this study as a reason why, you know, you should, he said that him, him and his wife, where they drive around where they live, they're smilers and waves and, and me and my husband have kind of adopted this. My mom, do you know these people? I'm like, no, I'm just smiling away.

Speaker 3:

<laugh>

Speaker 2:

Times 10 people smile and wave back as well and they don't even know you. So this is kinda, it's

Speaker 3:

Infectious, but the person who's smiling feels better as well.

Speaker 2:

Exactly right.

Speaker 3:

So the medical staff will felt better as well as the patient participants.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3:

So, so smiling makes a difference and it's part of that whole social engagement. Um,

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's so interesting. I find it absolutely fascinating. And so I wanted to ask you on this podcast is called Good Intentions. It's all about sort of how we connect and ground ourselves. I mean, how do you stay grounded and connected? You've clearly, clearly got this very challenging job and you're doing all this research. You, you're very busy stretched. How do you sit stay connected to what's important to you?

Speaker 3:

There's a great research around giving and how giving makes the individual who's given feel better. That and, and, and it pertains to monitoring giving as well as any other form of giving. And I enjoy very much mentoring young doctors, young students, young clinicians, young healthcare professionals coming through and engaging with those. And my work lifestyle in necessitates obviously engaging with all age groups. So I, I think that intergenerational transfer is very, very important and I really love it networks a lot from one age group. I often am friendly with, with younger people who are a lot younger than me. Um, and I get so much from them in terms of, of social, um, awareness as well as people who are a decade or more older than me. So my friend network outside of work is wide in terms of age range that's unusual but really good and healthy. And I suppose that's one of the things over the years is I've studied all of this that I aware of and I've made a conscious effort to have that spread in friends from different age cohorts. But it isn't common. It's more, much more common in southern Europe than in the uk.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, interesting. Obviously there's your book, which is fantastic. Are there any other books that you would recommend? Are there any books that sort of really meant something to you that you could recommend to us? And it could be, it could be about factual, it could be fiction, anything at

Speaker 3:

All. So of the kinda factual ones that I've really enjoyed reading, I love Malcolm Gladwell's books. I think he writes really well and he, he's able to repurpose something that's quite complex psychologically into, into something which is easy to understand. Matthew, sleep is really important. We haven't touched on sleep, but sleep is so important for the, for our biology and, and I think Matthew Walker, again has unpacked different personality subtypes, pros and sleep and they're all linked and has sleep. So linked to dietary intake, et cetera, in a simple way. And I've condensed some of the sleep research from many different groups in the book. But sleep was very, very important. And I like the way he, he does that and I love Richard Dawkins, the selfish Gene<laugh>. I think that is very quirky way of looking at our genetics and, and how we've

Speaker 2:

Evolved. Sounds super. I also loved that, um, the sleep book because I have struggled with sleep and I just found it. Yeah, God, I was literally like, like all the way through and uh, making notes and yeah. And

Speaker 3:

A lot of people do struggle with sleep and the issue is so many people after I've given one of these lectures or whatever would come up afterwards and say, oh, it's all very well to say about sleep. But I worry so much about the fact that I don't sleep well and my, my retort is, is much more important that you don't worry about it. Cause worrying about it makes 10 times worse. You know, do what you can. Don't worry about it beyond that because that's your physiology. That's you. Once you've taken on board everything else, then that's you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Self prophecy isn't it, to keep worrying about it, I guess. Yeah.<laugh> and last question. Why do you think we're here? What's our purpose, Anna Earth?

Speaker 3:

Ooh, well of course I very much believe in evolution, believe in, I know that be the case. How we've evolved and how we've evolved from right through, from being a single cell to aquatic creatures and now land dwelling creatures. Predominantly why we are here. I I, my own view is that it's chance and that there may be other living mammals even, but organisms on other planets, I mean it's so vast. How, how do we know? How can we say and, and I think our presence here is, is a chance occurrence. It fits very much with what we know of molecular biology, et cetera. And a lot of it is terribly out hoc. I mean there's very often when you go to look at why and you go back to the molecular structures and basic proteomics and all of the things we can get at there isn't actually rhyme nor reason to why, why all of those mechanisms and systems and pathways have evolved et cetera. Which is why it's quite complex to learn. Cause there's nothing intuitive about a lot of it. So that chaotic way evolving and makes me, it's, it's pure chance that we're here and the way we've evolved.

Speaker 2:

Super interesting. Fascinating. And what a great point to end on. Thank you so much for your time. I absolutely loved our conversation and I can't wait to, um, I'm gonna be at your session fun girling you in the audience in February. It's uh, it's not long now, is it? I'm

Speaker 3:

Really forward to that. Yeah, that'll be great. Great. Okay. Thank you Kelly. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much for listening to the Good Intentions podcast. You can find links to issues and to books that we discussed in the show notes. And you can look for the podcast on Instagram. It's Good Intentions uae. Please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoy this conversation, I'd so appreciate a review on whatever platform you're using. It helps more people find out about the podcast. See you next time.