The Good Intentions Podcast
Good Intentions connects with experts and storytellers around social impact, psychology, mindfulness, personal growth, and health.
Each conversation unpacks the beliefs and rituals that drive and ground each guest. You will hear about achievements that go beyond the conventional and tangible to a deeper level, finding the meaning and intention behind what we do.
I believe that there is a deep longing in our culture and society for something more: something higher, something deeper. Material possessions and technology do not satisfy our souls. As human beings we long for connection.
I'm on a mission to spread positivity, drive connectivity and to inspire others to live a more meaningful life.
The Good Intentions Podcast
Ep 33 - Bollywood, Hollywood and Cancer - Lisa Ray
Lisa Ray is an internationally acclaimed performer, philanthropist, author and public speaker.
She’s also one of India’s most successful models and an award-winning actress who starred in Canada’s Oscar nominated film Water.
After Ray was diagnosed with Multiple Myeloma in 2009, her forthright, courageous and humorous approach to navigating her experiences with this incurable blood cancer, which she chronicled in her blog, ‘The Yellow Diaries’, earned her international respect.
She is the author of the memoir Close to the Bone and will be attending the Emirates Literature Festival in Dubai in February 2023 - I can’t wait to attend her sessions.
I talked to Lisa about her career in the entertainment business and what it’s like to navigate that challenging space as a woman, and of course we talked about her cancer diagnosis and how the illness shaped her and her life.
Lisa spoke so beautifully about spirituality and purpose and and was full of wisdom about life, connection and community. I also loved out chats about raising children and how to stay centred and connected in the madness of family life.
Lisa is warm and wise and I loved her sense of humour and her pragmatism. I’m sure you’ll love this conversation as much as I did.
Follow me, and the Good Intentions podcast:
https://www.instagram.com/kellyharvarde/
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Find Lisa here:
https://www.instagram.com/lisaraniray/
https://www.instagram.com/theupsidespace/
Immerse yourself in some of the books we discussed:
Gabor Mate - In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts
https://magrudy.com/book/in-the-realm-of-hungry-ghosts-9781785042201/
Casey Schwartz - Attention
https://www.amazon.com/Attention-Love-Story-Casey-Schwartz/dp/1524747106
Chögyam Trungpa - Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Through-Spiritual-Materialism-Chogyam/dp/1570629579
Welcome to Good Intentions, the podcast where we explore the world around us to find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm Kelly Harvard and I'm on a mission to spread positive stories that will inspire you to live a more meaningful and connected life.
Speaker 2:Lisa Ray is an internationally acclaimed performer, philanthropist, author, and public speaker. She's also one of India's most successful models and an award-winning actress who starred in calendar's. Oscar nominated film Water after Lisa was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in 2009, she wrote about her experiences of navigating and curable blood cancer and her blog, the Yellow Diaries, her forthright, courageous, and humorous approach to her illness and her international respect. She's the author of the Memoir Close to the Bone and will be attending the Emirates Literature Festival in Dubai in February, 2023. I can't wait to attend her sessions. I talked to Lisa about her career in the entertainment industry and what it's like to navigate that challenging space as a woman. And of course we talked about her cancer diagnosis and how the illness has shaped her and her outlook on life. Lisa spoke so beautifully about spirituality and purpose and was full of wisdom about life, connection and community. I also loved our chats about raising children and how to stay centered and connected in the madness of family life. Lisa is warm and wise and I loved her sense of humor and her pragmatism. I'm sure you'll love this conversation as much as I did. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me on the Good Intentions Podcast today. I'm so thrilled to be able to speak to you.
Speaker 3:I'm thrilled to be able to do this, especially with somebody who's also based in Dubai, which is now home. And uh, again, it's like a great time to be in the UAE from my perspective as well in terms of like the way that the culture and art is really sort of blossoming and flowering and we've got this really great kinda cultural and creative community that's sort of pushing this agenda. So it's just great. It's just great to be in conversation about anything to do with books
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, my my number one favorite topic I have to say. And um, and that's what I wanted to start with really, Lisa. So you're gonna feature at the, um, the upcoming Emirates Literature Festival, which is obviously the best event in Dubai, the best festival in Dubai, hands down. Yes.
Speaker 3:Could
Speaker 2:You start by telling us a bit more about the book that brought you here and, and why you wrote it? It's not a short answer, but I wanted to get to the, um, into the heart of
Speaker 3:It. Absolutely. No, I, I appreciate that. So I've written a book called Close to the Bone and it's essentially a memoir if forced to label it, but I like to think of it as a travel log of the soul. I wrote this book over five years, actually. Even the process of writing from conceptualizing to writing to getting published even that is an entire story in and of itself. But the book was released in 19 in India with Harper Collins and I'm very proud of it actually. I really labored over it and it was subsequently picked up and released, uh, by a penguin imprint in Canada and the US during a little bit of a dark time in the middle of the pandemic. So I didn't get a chance to actually rally and travel and promote the book, but I'm really happy it's out there. I think that that is something that only another writer can relate to, you know, those endless hours of laboring over a turn of phrase and wondering at the end of it, will anyone even notice<laugh> All the hours that I put into it, it's, you know, often thought of as thankless, but it is a calling and just give some context. Of course, I, uh, identified in India and Canada as an actor that's, you know, been the profession that has carried me from I guess 1991. Almost till date though, I sort of think of myself as happily retired from appearing in front of the camera and able to devote myself to what I do think is my primary calling, which is writing. It's something that I've always wanted to do and you know, in the back of my mind I had always kept a lot of journals. I kinda chronicled a lot of my crazy life, for lack of a better way of defining it over the years, through little snippets, through books on, on the back of SEVIS in strange hotels and, you know, all of this material finally actually converged into close to the bone. When
Speaker 2:People write a memoir, I often think, gosh, you know, how do you manage to kinda like go back and remember all of that? So I love this idea. Did you actually have like a, a little pile of books and bits and pieces that you'd kept somewhere like in a central place?
Speaker 3:I did. I literally scrolled away things not understanding why I was doing this because obviously this was done over the course of decades and then finally started pulling it out of wherever it was stored in whatever house I was in at that time. I think my husband and I were based in Hong Kong during the period when I rewrote the entire book. And it was interesting because, you know, I don't have an emotional connection with Hong Kong. We lived there for four to five years. I don't have a history, I don't have a personal history. And that was sort of helpful because I often was thinking while I was writing and rewriting whether I should base myself for a period of time in India where a lot of the action takes place or perhaps travel back through Europe where I also set a lot of the book. But in a strange way, while India is sort of the source or the fountain of a lot of creative inspiration for me and Bombay is a place that I like saying, you know, made me, broke me, remade me so many times over in a way I found it much easier to write on neutral territory to be able to take all those little bits of debris as it were that sort of rose to the surface and reflect on it it and leave it together into a story. So that was my personal experience and it was kinda surprising cause I think we've often heard or read of writers who have traveled to particular locations in order to trigger their memories or to recapture a moment or to be able to write about a setting. And in this case I had to remove myself from the setting to write about it most accurately because I had to, I guess, access my memory more than anything else.
Speaker 2:In your book you're tackling sort of a very difficult subject, you know, you're talking about, but then also you covered the fact that you were quite unwell for a period of time as well. And cause of that it's just so full of, you know, a lot of really beautiful emotion. It's very raw. How does it feel to have that out in the world and how easy was it to write a book, which is about such a personal and very, very emotional subject? How does that feel now?
Speaker 3:Well I wanted to again give it some context, which is that I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in 2000 and multiple myeloma. Please, uh, I mean don't feel bad if you dunno what it is exactly. Cause I didn't know what it was until I was diagnosed with it. But it's, uh, very broadly speaking, it's a blood cancer, it's a malignancy of the plasma of the bone marrow. So very specific and it's a relatively rare condition. Normally people are diagnosed in their sixties or their seventies. So I was a bit of a case study from that point of view being diagnosed at 37. And of course, in fact being diagnosed was a trigger to start writing. So in order to process what I was going through, I started a blog called The Yellow Diaries and I was actually living in Toronto at that time and that's where I was treated, even though I was fairly nomadic and you might even say a woman of no fixed address at that particular point of time. But I had returned to Toronto to seek out treatment and I think I turned to what I knew best, which was using words to be able to frame the experience that I was going through. And I'd never written a blog before, but for whatever reason in the middle of the night when I was desperately high on steroids, when I was taking very heavy doses of steroids and you know, I had this very jekyll kinda experience in the middle of the night I started a blog, chronic my experiences and didn't even think much of it. Pressed okay, publish or send or whatever it was. And when I woke up the next morning I had some 5,000 followers and the news hit the headlines in India. Reason being within the South Asian community speaking openly about a diagnosis of a serious disease or any sort of misfortune, let's say, is seen as taboo. It's not something that is commonly openly done, particularly in 2009 when I chose to do this. Why
Speaker 2:Is that, Lisa? Could you tell us a bit more about why that is? I mean, what are the origins of this? I mean, do you think it can be changed? Do you think that that I'm in some way you've helped to change a little bit? I mean, where does it come from?
Speaker 3:It's changing. That is the good news. I, I certainly wouldn't take credit for that. However, having said that, I do know that I'm sort of the first personality, public personality of South Asian origin who uh, chose to go public with their diagnosis. And it wasn't even necessarily a well thought out, conscious decision. It was something that I felt compelled to do and perhaps I was pushing at these boundaries that these notions that, stay quiet, put your head down, don't speak about it openly. Let's try to unpack that within the South Asian culture. So, you know, I'm of Indian origin, I'm half Indian, half polish, and I lived in India for a long period of time. So I really do identify very strongly as South Asian and more specifically as a Bombay, as Aker. And Bombay is a very liberal city. However, within the more traditional cultures, very broadly speaking you could say, if you say within western culture, the individual is the nucleus of society within South Asian cultures, the family, it's often not broken down more than the family. And when you are part of the unit, obviously it's the interest of the unit surpasses the inter the interest of the individual. And there are these notions culturally speaking of is, which is, you know, family reputation or honor upholding that[inaudible] which is, you know, kind of a bit of a cliche. It's always like what will people think, what will people say? So I think that in general the first impulse in a South Asian, a more traditional South Asian household, cause as I said, it's changing and it's changing quite rapidly. Like everything. And if you speak about more liberal communities within Bombay and Delhi, perhaps the same ideas may not hold for those communities. But in general, and I have to generalize the family unit, the first impulse is to protect and hide the family unit from any sort of perceptions, negative perceptions. So I think it starts and ends there. And this is not only localized within the South Asian community, you might say within the Arab community as well. I mean my,
Speaker 2:I was just about to say it sounds very familiar to me having lived in the Arab world for 15 years. And I think that protection element can be a very good thing, right? I mean that can be very positive. It's like you protect one another, you come together, you support one another. You know, I was just down at the beach last night and I went for a run after work and you know, I love the way that Arab families come together in the evenings. Everyone comes and sits and they talk and they have these conversations. Like there's this very strong connection which I think is very powerful. But then like you say, it's when it kind of then goes into this sort of like slightly more okay protection because we care you, you know, we're worried about what other people think, we're worried about judgment, that then becomes a little more difficult to handle.
Speaker 3:I think what I would love to see is obviously a convergence of values. I also deeply appreciate those more traditional values as well and sought to India at a very young age because I was an only child and I kind of sought out this surrogate family, that warmth, that idea of a community that becomes so essential to your mental uh, wellness, to everything. And I didn't have that growing up in Canada to be honest. So that is the positive side of it. The negative side and perhaps where we need to work and highlight is understanding that authenticity, putting authenticity at the center and vulnerability is actually a strength and is actually a powerful taliman you might say on so many different levels for healing both individually and collectively. And I think if we can introduce this notion into the more traditional family units and the more traditional kinda cultural systems that we have in South Asia within the Arab world within a lot of more traditional societies, then we're gonna have a win-win situation. I certainly am not advocating that we throw out those traditional values, but that we marry them with values that we understand are actually very progressive and very healing ultimately to a society and an individual. And you know, I mean let's also not forget it that a lot of these notions of again, vulnerability holding your vulnerability, this idea of connecting with community and this idea of sharing our sorrows are actually Eastern values, you know, have also ironically been derived from, you could say the culture more traditionally within India. You could say Sufi kinda values as well within the Middle Eastern uh, regions. I mean a lot of these notions have actually been derived from there and mixed obviously with more modern uh, notions in mental health and psychiatry and psychology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no absolutely. I thought you said that your, your center of gravity shifted after your diagnosis, which I think is completely natural, but what exactly did you mean by this and do you ever still feel like this cancer defines you? I mean is it a label that you are sort of, you know, you're getting tired of that you don't want to have associated with you? Or are you very happy to still be a voice on the subject to keep raising awareness of it?
Speaker 3:That's actually a great question. You know, I do reflect about it at least once a year now because you know, I was diagnosed in and then relapsed, which I did not write about but obviously was also a really seminal moment because I got married, just moved into a house and then relapsed<laugh> as these things often happen. But in a strange way and I have tried to convey this through the book, getting diagnosed with cancer was sort of a relief. And of course I have to put that into context. Look not just me, but so many of us have internalized this incredible pressure to perform. We're always performing and it's relentless regardless of deadlines, you know, our deadlines, the expectations are getting more and more mercenary I think as the world we're living in becomes more and more of a posthuman world in terms of the pace at which we're expected to deliver or work or live. And I bought into that, of course I come from a pre-digital world<laugh>, but my entire career was built on distraction. I never wanted to be a model or an actress or any such thing. I ended up an act. That's why I define myself as an accidental actress. I ended up in this profession in order to escape confronting some trauma that I went through. So anyways, I kept really, really busy and, but there was always a part of me, an inner observer, a witness who was very cool watching all of this and trying desperately to be heard, trying to say slow down, trying to say listen, you don't need others to define you take a break. Trying to give me permission to follow the paths that I understood would be good for me. Whether it was writing, whether it was meditation and yoga, whether it was all these other sort of pursuits that were calling to me that Ill dedicate sometimes to. But then eventually I go back into old habits. So basically way I think we all are in communication with our higher self constantly. And it starts out as maybe just like a little whisper and then we ignore it often or we don't trust it and then knock comes and then eventually the door is broken down and often hits you on the head and that's what cancer was. So in a weird way, being diagnosed with cancer was the final message that I could not ignore and it forced me to integrate a lot of really important changes into my life that I'd been moving towards but had never really actually, you know, for whatever reason never committed to. And what were they, Lisa? What, tell us a bit about those. Dedicated myself to writing. Being able to say no more often than yes and living at a different pace. Also moving away from a career in entertainment cause I don't think it ever suited me. It was not my calling, you know, taking all of those decisions, being able to say, yeah, I'm gonna go off on a meditation retreat for two weeks now because I have to put myself first. So all of these things. So in a weird way cancer opened that door for me. It forced me to, I had no choice. It was a matter of life and death. So I integrated all of these changes into my life. And of course also cancer brought this new way of communicating with the world. It actually helped me shed a lot of fear, uh, a lot of fear of judgment. I ended up announcing my cancer diagnosis on the red carpet at the Toronto International Film Festival. And I was 40 pounds bloated, overweight on steroids. I was not a site that is normally seen on a red carpet basically, but in a strange way cause I chose to SubT that moment. And the cancer, the diagnosis obviously gave me the courage to do that. It's likes are, you know, maybe I, maybe I won't even be here in months. Screw, just do this. I place that I always felt was deeply uncomfortable that I feel is very disempowering for women. Cause you're scrutinized on the basis of how you look and what shoes you're wearing and in fact you're a product. And because I managed to somehow find the strength to subvert that moment, stand there 40 pounds overweight and be able to say, you know what? I feel great and I wanna talk about my cancer and this is what I'm going through. It was a breakthrough moment for me. And I'm not sure whether that would've happened if I hadn't been diagnosed. So I diagnosis anyone ever and I certainly do everything within my effort to ensure that I don't, that I don't go that again, but in a strange way. For me it was a real seminal turning point. So though I obviously everyone wants to resist being labeled or identified with a singular thing. I don't really think about it consciously. And I will, I think never stop advocating for cancer awareness or trying to share my story in some way. If it can help anyone or anyone can identify with this or my journey, you know, obviously I'll feel a great sense of personal satisfaction in what I've had to go through.
Speaker 2:So. Interesting. And um, you mentioned your appearance of being on the red carpet and I really wanted to ask you just a little more into that because I mean, a lot of your career naturally, I mean was based around your appearance. You know, you like you say, you're a commodity, you're a woman, you know, some, some of your career is based around your looks. I mean, that must have been terrifying in a way to kind of sort of step away from that when you, when it's your appearance is threatened and changed by your illness. And I've, I've heard other, um, other women talk about this as well and there's a, a former supermodel called Paul Ptz cover and she's just written a collection of short stories. She's, I think she's in her fifties now, maybe heading towards 60. She talk, she talks a lot about how, you know, having sort of her looks being her currency and then that currency fading. I mean it sounds like you kind of turned it into something very empowering rather than it being something sort of negative and a difficult thing for you, for you to go through. Is that the case?
Speaker 3:I think it was more a matter of actually bringing two very different sides of myself together. You might say that another really strong narrative point in my personal story is being fractured at all times. You know, not being whole. And this often happens again with identity issues. Part of it was was identity issues being of mixed race heritage and born at a time when that simply wasn't a common thing. So I never quite understood where I fit in. How I fit in was always asked where are you from? No matter where I was. It sort of that laid the for it. But I think also being a participant and industry, which obviously commodifies your looks was as a teenager on one hand, very empowering because suddenly I was making tons of money and being around the world and at the same time, you know, I was in charge of my time and able to take my income and invested in art or, or go off for six months at a time. So on one hand it's empowering of course, but but on the other hand I was always leading a double life because there was a side of me that would retreat that would feel really, really drained by the demands of the profession. Like I'm, I'm an introvert also by nature and may not sound like it or appear to be that, but, and, and I've trained myself in extroverted qualities, but I was always extremely, I had nothing to, I had no waying myself. Nobody taught that, didn't know that was quite young. I was born in the seventies, you're brained, your conditioned to please, right? Just say yes, yes, yes of course I'll do it, I'll go over and above. So there was that aspect, but then there was always the secret part of me, the most precious part, which I kind or very few people knew about where I was writing, reading, educating myself because I didn't even end up gonna university or college cause of a lot of circumstances in my life. And that was something that was also really dismaying for a girl from my background or my father has his PhD and it's part of the expectations of an immigrant, you know, a girl from an immigrant background and our cultural background. So I was sort of educating myself. And then I also always had a deep interest in spirituality from that point of view. I was very well placed in India to be able to really investigate and explore what that meant, what the whole beautiful mess means. So I was always taking myself off on what we call DARS or pilgrimages in India, quietly and solitary. But the point I'm trying to make is that, cause there were so many distinct parts of myself, I think it wasn't until I also stood on that red carpet to announce my diagnosis of cancer that in a strange way, all the different parts of myself together cohesive em, parts of myself as a whole. And I was simply for whatever reason, always struggled before that. That's the best way I have of describing it. Yeah,
Speaker 2:No, I find it fascinating and, and you, I actually wanted to ask you about this cause you said this quote, which I really loved, which was while a part of me lived on the red carpet, the other crave spiritual piece, these extreme ends. And I get asked this a lot and it's something that comes up for me quite often as well as, you know, so many of us are trying to live a sort of spiritual life. We're trying to be more connected to whatever the source is for us, you know, trying to find a life with meaning. I mean it's part of the reason why I set up this whole podcast. So we're trying to do this spiritual and connected, but at the same time, you know, you've gotta get up and go to work to pay for the rent, pay for the school fees. You know, you might have great corporate career where you're having to like literally button up and put a suit on every day. So how do you think we can try and sort of balance this sort of spiritual desire with the fact that, look, let's get real, you know, we still have to go up and and do, my dream of living in a year on the side of a mountain is, is seems very long way away right now when I have to get in the car and commute and do a job. So how can we try and sort of balance this spiritual life and this kind of real life which may be a little bit odds with one another. How do you think we can best do that? Do you have any advice?
Speaker 3:This is an absolutely beautiful question and should be an open ended question that we continuously ask and ask ourselves. But yeah, so first of all, thank you for asking that. This is something that I, I feel I could speak on and go on and on and on for quite some time. But in my personal experience, this is what happened. I was always a bit of an extremist and so I have had the experience of completely disconnecting from this realm your usual householder life as they say in Hinduism of getting up and going out and commuting and making money to, to support yourself and your family. So I did spend about eight months in a place called, which is where the Tibetan exiled government is and where the Dalai Lama lives currently in India. And you know, I've written about this experience and how it sort of came about serendipitously and I, it wasn't also even a conscious choice. I ended up there, did a 10 day silent meditation retreat in a place called, and I still remember I had a bunch of friends who were waiting for me and when I came out they looked at me and they said, well how was it? And I said, you know what, it was horrible And I'm going back. And I ended up spending literally six months in and out, in and out, in and out of retreat because it was, it was the medicine, it was the medicine that I had been craving and looking for because really it was very simple. It was just about sitting with myself. There was no fancy rituals or, I mean that's what I needed to do at that time. And it was hard, but I felt like coming home. So I did that and I was literally very close to sort of shaving my heads and dawning robes and I felt like I had found my place in the world finally. And then I still remember there was a, you know, a couple of circumstantial things that pulled me off the mountain at that time. And I've written about it so I won't get into it here. But in my experience now, having been that person who would hear about an incredible retreat in the Badlands of California and jump on a plane and go or go obviously offer to the Himalayas or on a retreat in Thailand or I hear that there's a master talking in Taiwan, come on, let's go. I've crisscrossed the world in pursuit of wisdom and masters and teachers and I feel that I've been extremely fortunate that a few genuine teachers and guides have fallen into my life. But today, where I stand from now today as a mother of four year old twins, as someone who obviously has not disappeared into a u on the side of a mountain, much as I would like to, maybe the next slide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Maybe the next slide, maybe the next life. I can honestly say that the work, the real work is done here in the world. It really is. It's about standing your ground and you have to start with fundamentals. You have to create a ground for yourself. You have to create a practice or a value system that resonates, that makes sense to you, that is your safe harbor. And that is where going on a retreat or having a community is extremely helpful, obviously. But I find for myself personally now that, that I've done that. And not to say that there isn't a part of me that still craves going off on being able to dedicate a lot more time to spiritual practice because, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna give, I'm sitting meditating for two hours a day. You know, I'm lucky if I do, you know, 20 minutes in a week. But because I think I created the groundwork for myself and I've reframed my spiritual experience into practicing in the world as I see it, there's a sense of acceptance. There's a real sense of acceptance. And at the same time, deep witnessing that I don't know, I would've been able to access if I had been in a remote location because the world will trigger you. Your kids will trigger you, your relationship will trigger you. How do you know where you are in your development on your path unless you fight those triggers. So that is where I am today and that's the only story or advice that I can share. Well,
Speaker 2:Thank you Lisa. Cause I found that really powerful when you said you practicing in the world, that really kind of like a bell kind in my head because I think Yeah, that's exactly what it's right. Yeah, I, I too have gone on many retreats, you know, and left my daughter behind and, and gone and, you know, immersed myself and it's the most amazing feeling and it's, and you know, now, you know, the four children, it was so easy. And now I have a child. It's, it's a massive, massive luxury to, to have that time. I used to sort of berate myself but not, you know, I'm not meditating for at least 30 minutes a day and, and now, you know, I squeeze in like three minutes, like before I go into a meeting and I'm sat in the car somewhere and you know, that nourishes me. I've had to try, you know, to kind like you say, reframe it, right? Like these smaller pockets and then like being a lot more mindful in my day to day, you know, like when I'm, you know, going to do the shopping or when I'm cleaning out the chicken clean, which is not, you know, the most spiritual practice you would imagine. But, you know, trying, trying to sorting in the real world I think is a really powerful way of pushing it. And I love that. Thank you.
Speaker 3:It really is, it really is. And it, it's also the cure to kinda something else that sometimes happens to seekers, which is a kinda a spiritual materialism that I have heard one of the talk about. And that is, you know, when we also spiritual practice as again, you know, kind of consumable items or we just kinda impose the same values, the same worldly values into that realm is like, I meditate this many times a day, I'm more spiritual you and then up judging other people and judging yourself. And it's tricky. It's tricky to get outta the mind and be able to find that kinda um, you know, that incredible dharmic flow otherwise, but within the world, within these parameters that were given. Which is kinda beautiful if you think about it because there is an aspect of also whether you believe it or not, fate and karma, all these things that play out in our lives. So, you know, this particular life that we have to live is also, there's a little bit of predestine in it. So let's work with the material that we have as well. But I really relate to what you're saying, right? I absolutely relate a hundred percent to what you're saying. And yeah, and then you end up berating yourself and I mean, what's the use of that really<laugh> that's just not useful at all to give ourselves yet more pressure in a, you know, in a world that is really essentially so kinda conditioned to make us feel bad about ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, absolutely is, and I love the this phrase spiritual materialism. I haven't come across this before, so thank you for sharing that. I find that really interesting. Yeah, it's, yeah,<laugh> applying that same logic to spirituality.
Speaker 3:No, it's a beautiful theory though. I think there's an entire book that's been written by, uh, yeah, I think it's Cho he was, uh, the, he established the tradition in America. He was a great Tibetan buddhi master. He is really, he was crazy. They called him a wild man. He was a wild lama and he had some really crazy ways of being in the world, but it was a very learned master as well.
Speaker 2:Lisa, you mentioned your children and I wanted to ask you about this. You know, you have, you have these girls, these beautiful twins and you know, as a woman raising girls and I've, I've got a daughter myself as I've mentioned, how do you speak to them? I mean, and they, maybe they're too young cause they're four, but how do you speak to them if you do about sort of, you know, appearance and looks like I know myself, you know, when my daughter comes down the stairs and she, you know, if my mom and dad here, they're like, oh you look amazing, you're such a, you know, you look so beautiful. Like this is, and this is no, this is no slight on them, but like the first thing that we often go to with little girls, right? Is like, you look so it's all about the looks. You look so beautiful. You are princess. Do you kind check yourself when you're talking sort of to your daughters about this? How do you approach this? Is this something that you consider?
Speaker 3:Oh, very much right now my parenting. Cause I'm not quite sure what exactly to do. I mean, I'll give you an example. I mean, course before my were born I had all these dress, but um, in a strange way I find that my girls have become my teachers. So I do, I'm very conscious of this exactly what you highlighted of little girls and you know, not constantly centering all the around how they look. Can't help to be honest, sometimes slip out my, oh my, because because they're, they're, they're like really? They're, they're so cute at that age of course they're gorgeous. But rather than beating myself up, I always sort of end that with, and you're smart and you're compassionate and your heart is so beautiful. So I make sure that there's, you know, obviously it's an entire package that you don't only highlight looks. I'm very sensitive about that and I'm figuring it out as I go along. But interestingly, as I said, you know, after all of these ideas that I held to be very dear about parenting and what the girls should wear and where they should go to school, in a strange way, my children are everyday teaching me and leading me. I mean of course they're obsessed with pink. Now, now what am I supposed to do? I don't wear pink<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I know, right? Exactly. Same
Speaker 3:Pink princess dresses. And I'm deny them, you know, of this one particular theory that I hold dear. Like I said, we try to even it out always by talking about their intellects and their talents and all that stuff. But to give you another example, I had studied in terms of education systems like the Waldorf system. And in fact at one point I had, even for a very small indie film, I had gone to visit many Waldorf schools cuz I was playing a Waldorf teacher. And I thought that the shiner approach towards teaching was so amazing, right? It's obviously child led, play led, it's honoring the child's spirit, et cetera. There's no grading system until much later. So I was in love with the Waldorf system. So when we, in the middle of the pandemic, we were living in Singapore and we relocated finally back to Canada after many, many years because we have a house in bc, a little house in the mountain in the middle of nowhere just for a reprieve. And there was a Waldorf school there. So I enrolled the girls, I was thrilled and about maybe a, you know, they I thought was great. They were baking bread and they were playing with cloth toys and all that. And every time I would come to pick them up though my, one of my daughter Sophie was always fast asleep. She was nap and finally asked her, I said, are you ok? You're always asleep when I, and she, she was, mama, I'm bored. I want learn more things. So strange that the child herself was saying essentially, and this is no shade on the Waldorf system, I still stand by it. But essentially she was saying, this is not for me. I want learn more, I want more, I want more, you know, I want maybe even more guidance and teaching hands on teaching. So I transferred them to a Montessori school and they were really, really happy. But this is the thing about kids, it's just fascinating. I mean everything you're,
Speaker 2:I love you're teachers, right? Right. Yeah. You have a lot of preconceived ideas and you think you're a certain type of person and you know, I've stood up as I'm sure you've stood up in front of the world, you know, I've stood up in front of, you know, numerous CEOs like in my job. Like nothing is more terrifying than standing in front of my daughter when she's got a strong opinion because I just know she's gonna subvert whatever I was thinking.
Speaker 3:<laugh>, how old is your daughter?
Speaker 2:She's nine now. So, um, yeah, she's a little older than yours. I remember the four-year-old stage very, very clearly. But um, yeah, she's a joy. I mean she's just an absolute joy. And every day she teaches me something. There's not a day that goes by where I don't look at her and just think, how did this happen? How has this person come through me and is now like
Speaker 3:Out
Speaker 2:In the world? Like this is a real, you know, personality and a value system. And obviously part of that has comes from us and, and what we've tried to kind of build equally. Like she's very much her own personal and I think, yeah, having children is definitely, is it Eckhart to to that says if you have children, you don't actually don't need to meditate<laugh> because every day<laugh>. Yeah, he, he said this, I think I saw him in Dubai a few years ago. He was fantastic. And he said yeah, cause someone asked the question, you know, I think it was a mom who was looking a bit harassed. It was like, I just don't have the time to meditate. And he said, you have kids? And she said, yeah. And he said, well you don't need to meditate because every day they're gonna teach you and you are gonna be in this situation where you have to regulate yourself and you have to be more mindful because of them. Which I thought was, which was, he was joking of course, I think probably he still wants us to meditate, but still
Speaker 3:<laugh>. But
Speaker 2:It was, it was a kind and kind and very intelligent perceptive thing that he said to her, which I always liked. This podcast is all about good intentions and what intentions we can set for ourselves. And specifically I wanted to ask you about intentions when it comes to our bodies. Like do you have practical tips, you know, if people are busy, like how can we keep ourselves at an optimum level and encourage sort of positive energy and optimism that's gonna keep us sort of uplifted and able to tackle the world as we face it?
Speaker 3:Oh, that's such a great question as well. Again, I would love to hear other people's opinions on this, but where I have centered on as again, a woman who has come through survived the entertainment industrial complex and beauty industry and also struggled with anorexia. Bu when I was younger, you know, I very much have settled on going back to the body, having the body glue. And these are hard lessons, these are hard one lessons. So I do too, man, I may not meditate a lot, but I make sure that I really do have some stillness in the day where I can listen to my body, I body communicate with quite clearly and I make sure that I listen. So at this stage, look, I love food. I even hosted Top Chef Canada for a while, so I really love food and I'm 50 and I'm strong and I find, you know, doing things, I find activities that I enjoy that really suit me. Not going to the gym for the sake of it because I know I have a shoot and I have to transform my body in a particular way. So I dedicate myself to that inner guidance and I find that that is really what works for me right now. And it's strange, like today, even in terms of regulating my, it's actually so brilliant when I've allowed my body to take, there's no, because I refuse to struggle anymore. I refuse to struggle after all these years of either starving myself or obviously eating to excess and seeing food as the enemy. So for me that was a really important aspect of also intention setting. So what I see myself is being really, really strong, fit, healthy. And a large part of that is also about embracing what I look like right now and being proud of that and not shirking away from that. And I've had some time to create a foundation in self and in self-acceptance, which is great. And I have a great group of friends in Dubai because otherwise I'll put this out there. Otherwise, Dubai is a little bit challenging at times in terms of how women are perceived as well. You know, there's, there's sort of an undercurrent, uh, feeling that women have to appear a certain way and there's this kinda perfection that's, and I'm sort anti very much thethe of that. So also this idea of really my other intention is wholehearted accept such relief, you know, sometimes into accept myself where I am right now, my body. And I think that to be honest, that's one of the reasons why I'm still here today dealing with this very difficult condition. And yet I don't even think of it as part of my life. I don't wake up in the morning and think that, oh my God, I've been diagnosed with this cancer that can come back any moment. Like it just doesn't even enter my thoughts. And I think that a lot of it has to do with these very simple practices of, you know, mirror work, looking at yourself, accepting yourself, loving yourself. Sounds simple, but obviously very hard to do's a the, to get to this place. And I honestly, most of the work is also in not rejecting, but not accepting the norm. I'm part of, part of, honestly, I feel that my peace of mind comes from social media detoxes and not listening to the news.<laugh>.
Speaker 2:I mean, seriously, I mean I work, I work in pr so like news is part of my life, but I very much like, I, I have very strong boundaries. Like we never, ever, ever, our TV is not connected to the outside world. We have Netflix of course, but it's not like I, I can't switch it on and put the news on for example. And I find it, no offense to anybody who wants to do that, but if I go to somebody's house and they have the news on in the corner, I often have to ask them to turn off. I can't, oh have it yet. I can't have it coming at me. I find it very jarring. And there's actually quite a lot of research around this isn't there that I think there's a fact that if you, if you see something negative on the news, the negative association of it can stay with you for something like nine hours. So it could have a very deep impact on your psyche and you know, how you approach things and how you feel. Like I'm not saying live in a bubble, I think we all need to know what's going on in the world and be able to make sense of it and to try and make change in it. But I do think yeah, you're absolutely right. Curating it and being very specific. I mean my Instagram is full of you know, people like you and you know, uplifting accounts like people that speak to me on a kind of cellular level that can kind of uplift me. You know, there's quite a lot of cats in there as well and you know, maybe some chickens,<laugh>,
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:I don't use Instagram as like a new, that's very curated for me and, and I try and sort of, I very pick and choose when I want, connect myself to the news, to those bigger issues because they take a on you right? They, you can't consume this and it not you in some way.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I'm you. That's great to hear, to hear you say that. Be honest. All need, you know, know a little community of people who do hold these beliefs to be dear who are not sort of pushing forward that agenda of like you have to be connected with everything. You have to market yourself, hustle, hustle, hustle. Yeah. And all, all of these values that is now predominantly dominating our culture. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Very much so. Yeah, I don't think we can continue on from
Speaker 3:That point of view. It's turning 50 honestly. So just away.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. Hear you amazing. Lisa, I wanted to ask you, could you tell, we, we talked on a book earlier, but could you tell us a little bit more about any book if obviously apart from yours, any books that have really meant something to you and that have either shaped how you live, perhaps you've given them as gifts to other people. Is there anything that you could recommend to us?
Speaker 3:I'll go back to Cho the way of the Warrior, you know, at that particular moment in my life, it really, really resonated strongly. I enjoy also the writing of Gabo.
Speaker 2:Oh so, so much. Have you read his new book?
Speaker 3:He's got a new book out, isn't it? The Myth of Normal? Yeah, yeah I think it's called The Myth of Normal. It's
Speaker 2:On my husband's nightstand. He hasn't read it yet. I think we we're traveling next week and I'm hoping that he brings it with him cuz if he gets through it then I'll be able to have it when he's done. But um, yeah I'm awaiting.
Speaker 3:Oh good. Where did, it's always easy to find
Speaker 2:Know I think Got it off Amazon have, although I did sees the when I by, so I it's yeah Bookshelves bookstore but I, it's there now so you should be able to find it. What do you particularly like about him Lisa?
Speaker 3:I think again he's, because he's science-based. Yeah. And yet obviously very much a seeker and he doesn't dismiss slightly more esoteric or spiritual kinda approaches. He mixes so effectively and he's in that sense of pioneer. Cause he has been, I mean now everyone's talking about him, but remember, let's remember he's been writing books for the last 20 years and I remember he's, he's written something lovely in the realm of the Hungry Ghosts as well. Well I think that he's pioneering and he understands, he understands the need of the hour we're actually in crisis, like humanity is in crisis whether we realize it or not. So he's been kinda ringing the bells for a while. But you know, I mean he's also someone who goes and does ayahuasca ceremonies and is all the better for it.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. I've,
Speaker 3:He's to disseminate to down to an audience that may have, have never been exposed these kinds of sacred practices and help it make sense and understand how it can be integrated into our life and why. And that's really important. You always need a great translator. You know, he stands between worlds. So I really love, he was interesting and Provocative's, it's by Casey Schwartz and you know, it's really one of the best reads I've had in a while from the point of view that it's a mixture of memoir and great reportage basically. So Casey Schwartz is this very talented writer for New York and she's essentially examining attention, what is this enigmatic thing, this kinda ephemeral thing called attention that everyone is fighting for in today's world. You know, I mean there's quite a few people or economists who refer to our present day society is an attention, but actually what is attention and what is lost as we start fracturing our attention. So it's an amazing read because she actually share some personal history. She was addicted to Adderall in college and how that affected her both like a mental level and pragmatic level in the sense that she was writing her first book on Adderall and she believed that she could not write it without Adderall. And that was obviously not the case. In fact, the manuscript was so bad it was rejected and that is actually the trigger that sent her into rehab and then write this book. And then she also speaks, in fact she interviews, interviews quite a lot of interesting thinkers across centuries to try to discover what is this mysterious thing called attention. So that was, I thought that that was just so like a really riveting read and it really made me stop and think otherwise I'm very much a fiction reader or I read spiritual books but this was sort of a little bit outta my wheelhouse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds fantastic. I haven't heard of it. Brilliant. I've made a note. I'm not brilliant in the show notes. Thank you. And my last question, which is a big one, which I always like to end. Why do you think we're here, Lisa? What's our purpose on this earth?
Speaker 3:Oh, I think this, I think sharing our stories, learning and growing through each other, falling, failing, growing, knowing ourselves. You know, they do say one thing that's always stayed with me is that we are the universe knowing itself and growing through us and for some reason that really stays with me. I'm a lot more peaceful today. I mean if you talk to me 10 years ago, I would've given you an entire like PhD thesis on why we are here or I probably would've collapsed into tears or something. I think that we all contain divinity and a piece of the universe inside us is watching and it's quite beautiful to know that, to be aligned with that and to make friends with it because then you're never alone and you're always exactly where you need to be. Wow,
Speaker 2:That's such a beautiful way of putting it. I absolutely love it and it's such a fantastic point to end on as well. I mean, thank you so much Lisa. I really, really enjoyed our conversation. Me too. I'll be at the literature festival next year. I mean I believe your session is the 5th of February in the evening, so um,
Speaker 3:Yes, please come by. I would love to meet you in person. That would be a great venue.
Speaker 2:I'll hundred percent be there. I can't wait for the literature festival highlight of the year every year, so I'm very much looking forward to it.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for, I really enjoyed this. I always enjoy connecting with like-minded people, community here, here is that there's beautiful communities within communities in the uae.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to the Good Intentions podcast. You can find links to issues and to books that we discussed in the show notes. And you can look for the podcast on Instagram. It's Good Intentions uae. Please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast and if you enjoyed this conversation, I'd so appreciate a review on whatever platform you're using. It helps more people find out about the podcast. See you next time.