The Good Intentions Podcast
Good Intentions connects with experts and storytellers around social impact, psychology, mindfulness, personal growth, and health.
Each conversation unpacks the beliefs and rituals that drive and ground each guest. You will hear about achievements that go beyond the conventional and tangible to a deeper level, finding the meaning and intention behind what we do.
I believe that there is a deep longing in our culture and society for something more: something higher, something deeper. Material possessions and technology do not satisfy our souls. As human beings we long for connection.
I'm on a mission to spread positivity, drive connectivity and to inspire others to live a more meaningful life.
The Good Intentions Podcast
Ep 27 - The Journey Through Grief and Finding Hope - Sasha Bates
My guest this episode is Sasha Bates: psychotherapist, journalist and former BBC and Channel Four producer. Sasha’s husband, the actor and playwright Bill Cashmore, died unexpectedly at the age of 56.
When Bill died, Sasha turned to writing and the resulting book, called Languages of Loss, is a moving, powerful and informative narrative account of how grief works, how it feels and how it can be managed; a searingly honest account of losing a loved one, and a practical guide to help anyone who is grieving.
In this beautiful conversation, Sasha talked to me about the death of her husband Bill and how her best selling book The Languages of Loss, is a conversation between her therapist self and her grieving self in an attempt to express and make sense of the inexpressible and incomprehensible.
We talked about the five stages of grief and how they are not necessarily helpful, why we are so bad at talking about death as a society and how we can best support someone who has lost a loved one. We also talked about guilt- how feeling happy doesn’t mean you’ve forgotten a loved one, yet it is an inevitable part of the grief process.
Sasha is warm and wise and open about her experiences and has so much practical advice about how to attempt to navigate grief, and why it will never be the same experience for two people.
Our conversation is a powerful insight into what it is to lose someone you love, and is also filled with hope and healing. Sasha says: “Fear is at the root of our inability to talk about death, we are absolutely terrified of speaking about it.”
I really hope that my having more conversations like this, we can bring grief out of the darkness and into the light, where it can heal.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Follow me, and the Good Intentions podcast:
https://www.instagram.com/kellyharvarde/
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Find Sasha here:
https://www.instagram.com/sashbates/
https://sashabates.co.uk
Immerse yourself in some of the books we discussed:
Sasha Bates - Languages of Loss
https://magrudy.com/book/languages-of-loss-a-psychotherapists-journey-through-grief-9781529312690/
Sasha Bates - A Grief Companion
https://www.amazon.com/Grief-Companion-Practical-darkness-Languages-ebook/dp/B0967R92G4
Nelson Mandela - The Long Walk to Freedom
https://magrudy.com/book/a-long-walk-to-freedom-the-autobiography-of-nelson-mandela-9780349106533/
Ndaba Mandela - Going to the Mountain - 11 Life Lessons from Nelson Mandela
https://www.amazon.ae/Going-Mountain-Lessons-Grandfather-Mandela/dp/1786090570/
The Dalai Lama - Cultivating Happiness
https://magrudy.com/book/cultiving-happiness-9781607967170/
Welcome to good intentions, the podcast where we explore the world around us to find meaning and intention in what we do. I'm Kelly Harvard, and I'm on a mission to spread positive stories that will inspire you to live a more meaningful and connected life. My guest to this episode is S Bates, psychotherapist, journalists, and former BBC and channel four producer Sasha's husband. The actor in playwright, bill Cashmore died unexpectedly at the age of 56. When bill died, Sasha turned to writing and the resulting book called languages of loss is a moving powerful and informative narrative account of how grief works, how it feels and how it can be managed. A searingly honest count of losing a loved one and a practical guide to help anyone who was grieving in this beautiful conversation. Sasha talks to me about the death of her husband, bill and how her best selling book is a conversation between her therapist self and her grieving self in an attempt to express and make sense of the inexpressible and incomprehensible. We talked about the five stages of grief and how they are not necessarily helpful. Why we are so bad at talking about death as a society and how we can best support someone who has lost a loved one. We also talked about guilt, how feeling happy doesn't mean you've forgotten a loved one. Yet. It is an inevitable part of the grief process. Sasha is warm and wise and open about her experiences. And she has so much practical advice about how to attempt to navigate grief and why it will never be the same experience for two people. Our conversation is a powerful insight into what it is to lose someone you love. And it's also filled with hope and healing. Sasha says, fear is at the root of our inability to talk about death. We are absolutely terrified of speaking about it. I really hope that by having more conversations like this, we can bring grief out of the darkness and into the light where it can heal. I hope you enjoy with this episode. Thanks so much for joining me today. Sat it's super to have you, um, and have you on the podcast today.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me and I
Speaker 1:Wanted to start with them and I was how I met you. I was lucky enough to meet you at the Emirates literature festival, which was, um, back in February now, I think couple of months ago earlier in Dubai, and you were here to talk about this incredible book that you've written in, which I absolutely loved called languages of loss could start by just telling us a little bit more about it and why you wrote it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, I started life as a, a journalist and a documentary filmmaker. So I'd always been a writer, but I left when I was sort of approaching 40, as many people do change careers to, to go and train as a psychotherapist. I just wanted to do something different. And a few put years into that new profession, my husband died very unexpectedly. He was very fit and healthy and was only 46. And obviously it completely rocked my world and changed everything that I thought I knew. And I didn't feel at that time ready to go back into being a psychotherapist. I was just such a mess myself. There was no way I could sort of support anyone else, but because writing had always been part of my DNA, I found myself trying to help myself through my grief or somehow process my grief by writing about it. So I was just letting all the emotions just spill out onto the page. Not really consciously knowing what I was doing. I was just, it was my way of making sense of it and trying to get some of the turmoil from inside out. And as I did that, I found that after a few weeks, as things started to calm down slightly, I found that my therapist self was almost entering the conversation. So I'd be kind of like on the page ranting about, you know, feeling like overwhelmed or angry or what have you. And then I could find myself then writing in a different voice saying, oh, okay. So this is you're going through anger. And this is very natural and think about how it feels. And, and I kind of realized that I was having this internal jewel conversation and slowly my therapist was able to sort of guide me through it. And it got me thinking about all. If I look at it through this theory, through this lens, how does that help or hinder and different sort of phases of the, the grieving process, different theories would like pop up in my head and I'd be thinking, oh, actually if I think of it like this, so it became a sort of dual narrative of me, the griever talking to me, the therapist and vice versa because also the therapist, part of me was also learning quite a lot because as a therapist, I had worked with grieving people and I thought I'd, you know, knew the theories. And I thought, I knew I how to say the right things and support them. And then I realized I knew nothing until you've been through it. You know, you don't really know anything. So the grieving part of me was also actually helping the therapist. Part of me understand it from the bodily emotion experience of it. It became about a lot more than theories. So it was a mutually kind of supportive and interactive experience. And then after a while, I just kinda thought maybe other people could benefit from this from hearing about my experience, both as a, somebody with knowledge of the theory and somebody going through it. So yeah, I contacted, he contacted publisher and before I knew it, the book was out there in the world and it sort of came about without me ever sort of consciously thinking, right, this is what I'm gonna do. It was very organic free process.
Speaker 3:It's fascinating. And I think that the kind of dual sort of personality jewel voice within the book is what is so unique. And I'm sure it's resonated with people for many, many reasons, but as I was reading it, I found that really powerful to hear sort of the very practical of voice and then the very sort of heartfelt sort of emotional voice sort of balancing one another out because it's a really interesting style. So the times had a, had a quote about your book, which I absolutely loved, which said that, um, this is not a book about getting over the death of a loved one. Baes knows that it's too big a thing to ask rather she is trying to get through it, to rearrange herself around it and to cope with as many layers and levels. So, I mean like, we've just touched on your book is so full of emotion. It's so raw. How does it feel having it going out there into the big wide world and having people read it and like us having these discussions about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I didn't really plan it in advance. Like I say, it just sort of happened. I never really got to that point of thinking, well, is this a sensible thing? And that, so it was out there. I knew it. And I guess it's hard to judge your own stuff. And it was only when people started reading it. Obviously first it was re reviewers before it kind of went on on publication and people started saying things like raw and emotional and brave. And I kinda thought, oh my really is it all these things? So I didn't really think about the impact it would have on people in particular when people started saying the word brave, that was a bit frightening. Cause I kinda thought, well, when people say brave, it sort of, to me makes me think that they think I clearly, they wouldn't have done it. Cause it was kinda a stupid thing to do. Like I thought, oh God really was it brave? And it certainly wasn't brave intention. It was more like I say, ignorance of the impact that other people might, that it might have on, on other people. So I suppose it was only by hearing other people say it that I realized what I'd put out there, but at the same time, as people saying these things, they were saying, this is so helpful. And this really speaks to me and this is helping me through my own grief. And it I'm so pleased that you're articulating something that I maybe couldn't have articulated myself. So it's always tempered every time I kind of think, oh, I wonder if I should have done that. Is it all a bit cringy? I always have the other side in parallel telling me that other people are getting something from it. And so that's really an amazing thing and, and I think it's worth it. And I think you can only ask other people to be vulnerable and talk about their own grief if you can show your vulnerabilities. So yeah, if I'd thought about it in advance, I probably wouldn't have done it, but I'm now glad that I kinda did it. But you know, despite myself through my sort of innocence and ignorance, because it's shown me that it opens up a conversation that might not have been otherwise possible or it gives other people the opportunity to be more raw and emotional about their own stuff.
Speaker 3:And I think that's so interesting. I've never heard anyone say that about writing nonfiction. Cause at the lit first you hear a lot of the authors will say, you know, just write for yourselves the moment you stopped. Think like, well my reader, like who are my readers? Who are they? Who is she? Who is he? Then you kind get this block and you should just write what's in you. But I've now I'm starting to understand from what you're saying, basically apply that to nonfic just, if you're going to write, just write whatever is true and meaningful to you and in your case it was around a specific topic. So I think that's really interesting. I haven't heard that sort of talked about before. So there's a lot of, um, conflicting opinions about the sort of five stages of grief. There's this very sort of set old way old, I guess it is quite an old, old way of looking at it. I mean the whole denial, anger, depression, bargaining, and acceptance. And do you write a lot about moving away from, from this, which I found really interesting. Could you sort of speak about us moving away from these universal stages?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I find that it's very limiting both to call it stages and to say that there's only five. I just think that completely underestimates the, the power of grief and the longevity of grief and the conflicting ever changing, contradictory, tumultuous emotions, that and thoughts and behaviors that are part of grief. So I just feel it's, it barely scratches the surface of what it actually feels like. And I think it is a, I, I suppose you might say a traditional way of thinking about it, the five stages, but I also understand why it's become ubiquitous and why it's so in such common par, because I think one of the main characteristics of grief is this sense of confusion and the world's been turned upside down and you no longer know which ways up. And you are desperate for somebody to tell you is how you do it. And it will be over soon and just through your stages and tasks and, and it'll all be fine. And so that aspiration you need, and it, what I think what the five stages did was it kind of gave people that framework. It gave them those foothold that they, well, if I can just get to the next foothold, then I can see progress and I'm getting through it. And I think there's a certain amount of value in that. And it, the desperation of please just somebody find me a map outta here and tell me it's gonna be OK. So I think it's been great in that sense, um, that people have got a framework on which to hang some of their emotions, as long as you understand that it is one way of looking at it and it's limiting and it won't necessarily be how you feel and maybe you, some of those elements in there, but there's a lot more to it than that. And I kind of want to just open up the vocabulary around it, if nothing else. I mean obviously yes, the conversations and the, the taboos, but just being able to say, well, are they stages? Is that a useful word maybe for, for you? They might be okay. Fine. Think for them as stages, if you, if that's useful or maybe it might be helpful to think of them, something vague like phases or even flavors or shapes, something that has no sense of progression, you know, what shape is your grief today? What flavor is it today? Or as I do in the book using what sort of imagery like oceanic imagery, are you drowning today? Are you floating? Are you swimming? Are you kind of, uh, seeing lands, you know, are you in a storm? So I think it's about finding whichever visualization or words or metaphor kind of helps you find your own pathway rather than saying there is only one pathway.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Interesting. And then if you kind of slip through them or backwards or forwards or sideways, that, that isn't wrong, it's just accept where you are and, and sit with it for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's exactly. It's like weather, you know, we get stormy days in summer and we get, um, sunny days in winter and weather never stops. Um, you know, it moves, you know, sometimes you get long period of summer follow by long period of wind, but sometimes it, especially in England, there's always, weather's constantly changing. And I think grief is like weather in that sense rather than one linear progression.
Speaker 3:Great way of describing it. So, I mean, I think I know what you're gonna say is an answer to this, but is there any way to prepare for the different stages as you go through them then? Or, you know, is that just not something, can you just, you just have to basically just address what comes up. So like opening the curtains it's raining, it's raining, you just deal with the rain. Is that just how you kinda approach it on a day to day basis?
Speaker 2:Yes. I think being with where you are now, I mean, if, if there are things to prepare, it is in a sense of if we are gonna stick with this analogy, having your rainbow and your umbrella by the door, but also having your, your swimsuit at your bikini at the ready as well and giving yourself permission. I think the best prep of preparation is to say, I'm giving myself permission to just go with whatever I need today. And you kind of plan for the worst, but you hope for the best and plans are the worst, I think is that the phrase that people say so that you are not constantly being disappointed if you're not feeling better, but at the same time, you're not constantly feeling guilty. If you do feel a bit better or thinking, oh great, I had a brilliant day. That's it? The worst is behind me because there may be behind you for the next week or so, but you know, there's bound to be another, you're gonna fall into another puddle further along. So I think the best preparation is to be kind to yourself, give yourself permission, understand that it will change. Maybe have things in place for when the bad days hit. So you have those friends that you can say there might be days when I just ring you up and can't walk and just need to, so, and you know, is it over okay to just say on the end of the phone or, you know, whatever version of that would work for you, you know, have your favorite foods in the freezer or the store cupboard so that you don't, when you don't feel able to go out, you know, you've got those things in place, have your playlists for when you need your mood to be uplifted or for when you want to kind of be with somebody else going through the sadness musically. So those are the sort you can prepare for, what am I gonna do on the good days and what am I gonna do on the bad days? But you can't really, I would say if there was preparation to be done, I it's in the self-compassion arena and the allowing arena.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It makes complete sense. And you mentioned guilt Sasha, which I thought was really interest. I've had a, a friend of mine who was, um, bereaved. He lost his son and he actually said the same thing to me. He said I had a really, I've been having some really great days. You know, I've been traveling, I've been doing this. And, and then he said, but every time I try to enjoy myself, I just feel so guilty. I mean, how much does guilt come into it when it, when you're grieving someone close to you?
Speaker 2:I think it is massive. I think it is one of the almost unavoidable things, very from person to person. But that one seems pretty universal and pretty hard to avoid. And I think it's just part of the process. And, you know, in a way, how could you not feel guilty that you are still here and they're gone. So again, understanding that this is just part of it and I am gonna feel guilty that does it necessarily mean that I could have done something differently or that I should be feeling this way. Yeah, of course. I'm gonna feel guilty. That doesn't mean I'm right to feel guilty. It doesn't mean it's valid. It just means that I'm really aware of the unfairness that I'm here and there they're not. And also just knowing, feeling happy does not, you've forgotten the person. You can be really happy and they're still with you. And that's in a way, one of those things that you, you mentioned that earlier about adapting and managing your way around it, which is to understand that they're still with you, even when you are happy. It's, you're not betraying them by being happy. Certainly I know with bill and I can't believe there isn't a person that isn't you. I know he would be furious with me if he thought I was SQU a life that he would've loved to have had, but be miserable all the time. It, it feels like, you know, why did he spend all that time? Pouring love and self-esteem and confidence and happiness into me for me to just say, well, well, I'm never, I'm gonna throw all those lessons away and just be miserable. Sometimes you can't help. I'm not saying we're not gonna be miserable. Of course we're gonna be miserable, but maybe, you know, for me, I kinda think how lovely that a I'm gonna give rid of a respite from the misery occasionally. And I'm able to enjoy the moment, um, and think, well, he's here with me in the good moments as well. He's not only here with me when I'm sad and crying and missing him. He's here with me when I'm saying, look at that sunset or how wonderful that all your friends are here with me and we are celebrating and being joyful together. And we know each other because of you. So I think the guilt is always gonna be niggling away. You don't have to listen to it,
Speaker 3:Try and turn that voice off. Perhaps if you can.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or down at least if turning it off feels impossible. At least you try and turn it, turn the volume down and turn the volume up on the other voice that says, why are we, if not, to try and make the best of it as best we can. And it's, that's not always gonna be possible. You know, there'll be days when people say, oh, we wouldn't want you to be sad. And you just wanna, you know, run away very quickly direction and say, ah, how does that help? So there's gonna be days when there's nothing anyone can say, or that you can tell yourself that is gonna lift what you're feeling, which is why it's all the more important to grab those moments. When you do feel positive and uplifted and, and joyful for all that they gave you and all that you had with them. Because, you know, especially in the early days, they, those moments don't come around that often. So absolutely grab them and hang onto them and think fewer moment of respite, a little bit of a life after, in the moment, you know, in the midst of a storm where you're constantly being buffeted, this is a moment where you can grab the raft go because you know, the storm's gonna come back eventually.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Very true. I was really touched by the parts in the book where you mentioned that you felt Bill's presence and especially sort of in the early days, I mean, does that still happen and how MIS help those who are grieving? I mean, what about if you just never feel anyone's presence and you're just kinda like, where, where are they? Could you talk to us a bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think this is a tricky one because I think it's really hard to talk to. So to positively about it, if you're talking somebody that hasn't never felt those, because that could deep bear grief, it's like, well, why haven't I felt? And so you don't want to be too kind of, um, oh, it's I, it's so amazing. I, I fell to my fellow. So I think some people never will. And you know, there's nothing wrong with that doesn't mean anything. It's just, maybe some people are more receptive than others, or I don't know why some people don't feel it, but I also know that many, many people do. And I certainly felt that I saw signs and messages. That to me felt like they could only be from him. They were so much his sense of humor and the sort of thing that he would say or do or knew what made me laugh. And so I, I feel very, very strongly that they were, you know, everybody that skeptics always say, oh, well, you, you know, you see what you're looking for and that could be anything. And it's a coincidence and fine, of course, it's of course it might be. But the fact that I'm looking for them and I, to them, whether is my mind creating something that I wanna see or whether it is a message, I, him, what does it matter if in that moment I kinda think, oh, that makes me think of bill. And I wanna to tell myself, that's a message from him, you know, who does that hurt again, find those little moments of, of joy and your little life or us where you can. However, I would say that for those of us that have felt that it doesn't feel like a question of belief as to whether it is true or not. I feel absolutely convinced that their messages from him, but of course fine. If other people wanna say, they're not, they're fine. And you know, maybe they're not. And maybe it is my mind trick playing trick to me, but I'm sure in myself that I feel him around, but yeah, they're much fewer now. They're far fewer now, I suppose, because I'm less in need of them because I have created a life that is more used to him not being here. Funny enough, actually, I'm just watching a series on Netflix called surviving death. I dunno if you've come across it
Speaker 3:Super.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's really, I'm finding it really interesting again, it's the kinda thing that skeptics that can be completely DRIs about, I'm not sure I can use that word quickly in that sentence, but I think it's five or six episodes. I think I'm three or four in, and it's about people who have had his experiences and what they've experienced in that. It's about people who've gone to mediums and felt that they've spoken to their loveness. It's about people that see signs in butterflies, in birds and you know, what, what have you, it's very, I find it very compelling, I believe in this stuff. So I suppose again, I'm have a confirmation bias towards thinking, well, I felt these things, so I completely believe these other people have felt of these things. If you go in thinking what load about rubbish and is the people who are just making it up, you are gonna see that in it. But I have found that quite an interesting documentary actually to see how many other people have felt. Some of the things that I have felt. And again, how convinced they are that it's like, no, I know that I know this is my daily love.
Speaker 3:That's fascinating. I'll um, I'll look it up and I'll put it in the show notes for people, if it's, it could potentially be useful. Um, I think, yeah, it's, it's a whole, I mean, that's a whole different topic. I'm sure we could spend hours talking about, but I do think it's interesting that a lot of people have similar experiences. There was a book that I read, um, not that long ago and obviously the name escapes me now. I think it was by a German gentleman. He's, um, a brain surgeon and he contracted, um, viral meningitis in his brain and went into, uh, I'm sure. You know, it, I'm sure you know, it, is
Speaker 2:It proof of
Speaker 3:Yes. That's the one proof of yes,
Speaker 2:Then Alexander.
Speaker 3:Yes. That's the, yeah, he's a neurosurgeon. And he ends up in a coma through this meningitis that he gets and he can remember it all and he's completely, you know, he has this whole, whole book is based around it. But I think the compelling thing with him is that he's a man of science and you know, it's very open about the fact that, you know, had you asked me this before I had the experience? I would've said, no, absolutely not. It's all concocted. It's the drugs, it's this, it's that having been through it. He obviously has this experience and this very compelling story around it. I think there's a second book as well, which I also read, um, which is where he then finds other people who have had the same experience and then also talks to them. And it's, there's so many similarities and yeah, just very, very, very interesting, very moving. I mean, whether you believe it or not, I think just to hear someone's story who has been through through something like that, just fascinating, absolutely fascinating. And if it helps you, it helps you, right? Why does it matter whether anyone else believes it or not, or, you know, even you don't necessarily know whether you believe it or not.
Speaker 2:Well, exactly. Even if you are losing yourself, who cares, if it makes you feel better and it makes you feel connected, what does it matter if it, if it's your brain playing tricks from you, but some, a lot of the people in the, um, Netflix documentary are also medical doctors or scientists who say exactly that, you know, I spent my life being a skeptic and a scientist, and I didn't believe anything that I couldn't prove to be true. And my experience has absolutely changed my mind about that. But also I think those of us that have been through such transformative experiences and who know that your life gets changed by them will also know that you, it's not just your practical, real life that gets changed. You know, you do change your, your beliefs and your thoughts and your, your emotions quite profoundly, which is why in a way I, you know, it doesn't matter who else believes what really, I think you do end who a bit that were club of people who know what it's like as a therapist. I thought, I, you know, I'd read all the books, I'd read all the theories. I thought I knew how to do, how people in front of me telling me about their believement were feeling, uh, cause I'd read about it. And of course it was utter nonsense. And actually even saying that, just going back to what we were saying moments ago, even as a therapist, you know, I find it hard to kind of admit that I feel Bill's presence. And I believe in the science he sent, because you always think, well, that does that undermine me as a therapist? Well, well people think I'm not as good a therapist and of course it's rubbish. Cause it doesn't, you know, whatever beliefs I have about anything in, in the world do not affect how I am as a therapist anyway, but you still kind of think there's this sense that all people think, you know, oh, I'm a bit woo, woo. And therefore, nothing else I can ever say, none of my, you know, learning and expertise and skills can be listened to because I happen to believe these things
Speaker 3:Agreed. So can we just talk about how we handle grief as, as a culture, as a community? I mean, one of the main things that we get wrong, I mean, we've touched on the sort of, you know, this understanding that you've got these phases and if you can just crack through them, then jolly good. It'll all be done and dusted. And there was some research which came out a couple of days ago, which we spoke about briefly, which is, you know, if you haven't got over it within a year, then you, you are actually classified as having this terrible thing is happening to you and you have a medical label attached to you. So what are the main things that we're getting wrong? And, and what can we be doing to try and change this?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, exactly that I think the notion that you get ever get over it, I mean, you change your relationship with it and it becomes a different times more or less foregrounded and your focus, but it's never not there. I think we get wrong the way we talk about it's just in terms of allowing people to talk about their, their dead loved one. People sort of have this notion that, oh, I don't want to upset us. So I won't mention it rather than thinking, well, she's upset anyway, me mentioning, it's not gonna be the thing that, you know, my husband dying is the thing that upsets me. You mentioning it's not gonna be the thing that it might just give me an outlet. People telling you how you should be doing it, particularly that you should be over it by now message. You know, anybody telling anyone, anything I think is, is very well.
Speaker 3:Has anyone ever said that to you, Sasha, anyone said to you, like you should be over it by now or like, has it
Speaker 2:Not exactly in those words, I have heard many people tell me that other people have told them that. I mean, luckily, most people
Speaker 3:Blow my mind. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, luckily, most people in my world are pretty emotionally and, and wouldn't, but you can also tell that occasionally there's a bit of an implicit message in the sort of things that they say or want you to do or be there's also, again, that critical voice of yourself that, you know, I suppose my worst critic is myself. There is a little bit of voice in, in me when, you know, four years on, I, I have a bad week and I just want to ring a friend and talk about how, you know, the loneliness or the missing him or the sadness and something holds me back. I mean, not always, but I can think, oh God, they're gonna think it's four years on. Why is she still going on about it? And so I maybe monitor myself, which of course is nonsense. And my friends wouldn't think that, and they would be very willing to listen. But even me a therapist is written two books about out grief, um, and who know, and who was exp and knows you don't 25 years from now. I'm probably still gonna have days like that. Even I find myself judging myself and thinking, don't bring your friend, don't let them know just how much of a mess you can still be at times don't bore them. Don't go on too much. Don't let them think you can't. So I think possibly, you know, we give ourselves that message if we're not careful.
Speaker 3:Mm, absolutely. And why do you think we find it so hard to talk about death and dying and grief? I mean, many, many years ago I worked with, um, it was the co-op funeral society. I think they're called in the UK. And one of the things that we did as an agency was we were trying to get people to start planning for their funerals, you know, to basically open up the conversation about death so that you, it's not something that you're doing in a very, very stressful time. You're actually doing it in a time when you're, you know, happy and joyful and you can have it how you want it, which feels so enlightening, but we still seem terribly to struggle terribly much with it. But why do you think this is? Is it just cultural? Is it, what is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, um, it's partly cultural, definitely, but I think it is really terrifying. People are scared of it and like any kind of anything in the therapy world, you know, that the less you talk about something, the more frightening it becomes so that this irony of, if we were to talk about it or we might be less frightened, but we are not. So we don't talk about it. And then we become more and more frightened. So people get confronted by their own mortality. They don't wanna think about a time when they're not here and they get terrified about will they cope with the loss of a loved one? And it's like, don't, don't talk about, it's almost like this magical thinking. If we talk about it, it it's gonna make it happen or they worry that they're gonna be Golish or again, this thing of I'm gonna upset the other person. And then I think, yeah, culturally, uh, well, the Brits in particular and many, I think many Western nations just don't have that habit of doing it. So again, the less other people are doing it, the less you wanna it, cuz you start to feel that you are a bit of a, a freak. Yeah. We all infect each other with this notion of this is something that we can't talk about. So it needs those of us that can talk about it. So to be quite loud about it, I think to say, no, come on, we do need to talk about it. But I think underpinning all of it is fear. People are just the frightened of their own mortality and they're frightened of the loss of their loved ones cuz they're, they're frightened of not coping with, with their own feelings of grief.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think fear is the key word there. Isn't it it's just so it's so big. You can't, you, you just think that even by thinking about it, it's just too overwhelming for us, for us as, as a species. I think so obviously you wrote two fantastic books and that was one thing it helped you get through the sort of grieving process or helped you a lot as you were going through your journey. I mean, outside of that, outside counseling, outside support groups, are there any other activities that you suggest that can help us sort of process grief? Um, or I mean, does it depend obviously it depends on who you are, but is there anything in particular that, that people should try and can try to help them?
Speaker 2:Well, it, my second, a grief companion is much more a sort of practical guidebook or manual as to things that might or might not help because you know, I always have to caveat everything with saying, you know, you've gotta find the thing that works for you or that helps you. And that will also change, you know, from day to day and year to year. So there's no one size fits. So I suppose the first thing is find what is helpful for you? The book we've companion is divided into, well, it's four, it's four sections, the it's mind's body spirit. And then the every day, obviously the every day is more the practicalities of probate and dealing with anniversaries and all sorts of everyday practicalities, but the mind body spirit thing it's I think we forget so often that we do exist in these three different realms of mind, body and spirit. And we try to think our way through everything. We, all of us think that we are just a mind that sort of drags this sort of inconvenient body around with this so that we think that, um, or if I just think what I can do and I can keep busy and I can read enough about it or talk enough about it or understand it enough, we think that's kind of done dusted and there's absolutely a place for that. I mean, that's why there is a section called mine because that can be really helpful. Like I say, my therapist self, my more self coming in to help the emotionally overwhelmed, grieving self in the first bullet languages of loss was really helpful. I needed her to kind of say, now let's just think about this for a while. So there's definitely a place for using your cognition and your intellectual abilities and your mind, but the body part is also, you know, really important. It's listening to your body, understanding that a grief is very embodied and therefore you need to take your body into account. And whether that is doing less and resting more and understanding that all this will take its emotional toll and you need to, you may well be feeling things somatically, you may be feeling tired or, or achy or, or having stomach aches or headaches or orations and understanding that that's part of it and taking care of yourself, but also understanding the world that exercise how useful movement and that doesn't have to mean going for a run. And quite often, that's not what you wanna do, but you know, just movement in terms of going for a walk or just little dancing around your worm, or just understanding that there are things that you can do using your body to change your state. And in particular, understanding your breathing patterns, breathing is massively important in helping one self-regulate cause if you can manage your own nervous system, whether that's because you are to AED and stressy and anxious or under aroused and gone into the more depressed, helpless collapsed states, changing your breathing can help shift that nervous system mode, which in turn will have an effect on your emotions, which in turn will have an effect on your mind and your thoughts. So all these things, even though divided the book up, they are completely interlinked. So yes, being aware of your bodily state, finding what works for you in terms of movement and rest and that balance using your friends, social connections, not being alone with it for too long, alternatively knowing when you need to be alone and that the public fronting part of you need to rest and you need to just be the part of the book. I mean, it could be religion for some people, but it's also about things like being in nature and finding the awe in things and being with your pets or meditating is another huge thing, which again, in grief, it can be quite hard and meditation doesn't have to be just sitting still, um, and emptying your mind, which is not what meditation is anyway. But a lot of people think that's what it is. It can be just being more mindful in your everyday life. Like I say, smelling the flowers and going for, uh, a cold water swim. I mean, there's things that have been with. So, so things like cold war, swimming, gardening, forest bathing, being with pets, all of these things that help your nervous system kind of calm down really, or help you connect to others, uh, having a laugh, you know, making sure you get out and you smile and you, you do things that distract you, distraction and of denial and avoidance are not bad. Of course you're not gonna be just trapped. You don't wanna be trapped in denial and avoidance, but, um, it can be really helpful to just say, do you know what I don't, I can, for a moment, I can imagine that I'm not a grieving person and I can just go out and have a good time and you kind of need to give yourself those breaks as well. So yeah, there's an awful lot of things that have been proven to work, not work. I mean, again, you have to be so careful with language proven to be helpful to some people at sometimes nothing. There's no magic bullet journaling, you know, getting your creativity in general, whether that's writing or poetry or music or art or crafts or whatever creativity means to you, that is, that can be really helpful in just promoting again, it's getting yourself in that zone where it's not just all cognitive thinking or being completely overwhelmed by the emotions, but being in that sort of zone, you know, athletes talk about musicians, talk about, or artists talk about you. Don't, you know, a lot of people go get in that zone by doing a jigsaw puzzle or knitting. You know, it's not like we all have to go out and be amazing creators. Some people get it by gardening and or tending their flowers or doing flower arranging. It doesn't have to creative doesn't mean, you know, you're gonna be the next amazing, you know, musician or artist. It can be doing the thing that for a few moments completely absorbs you in what you are doing to the point that your, again, all comes back. Most things come back to the nervous system levels of arousal, really that allows your nervous, just to reset, bring yourself back down to, uh, a place of balance and harmony way. You're not constantly being flung into a stress response of either, you know, fight or flight and anxiety or freeze and collapse and helplessness.
Speaker 3:Mm, no, they all sound great. And you know, we've talked about sort of, we're all terrified of saying and doing the wrong thing and you know, we're all terribly, it's just terribly hard for us to talk about death and loss. Like what can we do if someone close to us as a loss, what can we do to help? How can we speak to them about it? Um, should we speak to them about it? What, from your experience is the best way for us to approach them?
Speaker 2:I think let them know that you are there for them in whatever form that takes really. So, you know, I'm here with you. I'm gonna be here. Whether that means you want to me to arrange things and take you out dancing or to help you forget, or whether it means you want me to sit on the end of the phone and just listen to you breath as you've fall asleep. So just having people know that you are available in whatever form that takes maybe gently suggesting things, never telling them what to do, but also not handing it over to them saying, you, you tell me what to do. So, you know, oh, I'm thinking about taking off for what would you like to come? Or I'm, I'm thinking about bringing you some food. Would that be helpful? So offering suggestions and being about, you know, some days they might say, I don't wanna talk to you or yes, that is helpful. Or know what a stupid suggestion. So I think it's about being okay with being wrong as well. Cause you are gonna get it wrong because part of grief is massive mood. Especially in the early days, massive mood swings where, what somebody might have said they wanted one day might change the next day. And it's impossible not to get it wrong because nobody really knows what they want. So they might have said, I just can't talk about it. Don't ever bring its name up on one day. And the next day it's like, why are you saying his name? He hasn't gone his things. So there's a lot of unpredictability. So know the response you get is not about you so fine. Okay. Today, we're not about it today. We are talking about it. So being led by them really, I think also just letting them know whether kind of explicitly or implicitly it's okay for you to talk about that person or your feelings whenever and for how long and for as long after a, as you need. And for me, I love it. When people bring Bill's name up, I try to bring Bill's name up very early on in the conversation. So people know that it's okay. I love it. When people send me little messages saying, well, not so much now, but in the early days, they're just check in and say, just thinking of you. But nowadays it's more along the lines of, oh I so and so, so and so today, and I was reminded of being here with bill, or I just had a sudden thought of bill or I found something of his or so people were telling me that he's still in their world as well, that they still remember him. I like it. Other people, maybe won't like you and endlessly bringing their name up. So again, you just it's really hard, which is why I say probably the best support you can be is to be okay with getting it wrong and just say, look, I am here for you. I am going to try and follow as much as I can. Your leads as to what you want. Sometimes that might land badly. And I'm sorry, but just tell me if it lands badly.
Speaker 3:I love that you said that you like people mentioning bill as well. Cause I heard this from another friend who was like, yeah, no, no, please tell me what. And you remember them because it's like this lovely gift that I get. Cause I, I don't have that memory. You've got a different memory. So, or, you know, someone was sharing photos that she had never seen before of her and her husband. And I just, yeah, I would never have known that. I would've thought I was maybe better. I'll wait to see if she says it first. And if she says it first, then I'll talk. I thought that was a really nice cue that you give to people. Not that it's the pressure should be on you to give the cues, obviously it's us to, to offer and to help. Yeah. It's so interesting that people actually do want to talk. They do want to have that person, remember they do want to have them sort of still part of the conversation. Like don't just close that door and pretend they never happened. Actually share other memories of them. If, and when you are able to,
Speaker 2:Again, you can't really generalize cuz other people, there will be people that don't feel this, but a lot of people. And I certainly, you know, he's never not with me. I'm never not remembering and thinking about him. So to know that other people are, I find that. So moving. So I love it. When people send me photos, they found all or memories or what have you, cause it's not like I've forgotten him. You know, I might not talk about him all the time because I don't wanna bore other people. And haven't think that's my only topic of conversation, but in the part of my brain, that it's the only topic of conversation still. Now I suppress it, um, in company. So people that give me the opening to say, yeah, let's have this conversation because normally I just have it with myself. For me, that's a blessing. But again, there may be some people out there for whom that isn't great and ask them, is it okay for me to talk about him or her or them or
Speaker 3:No, definitely. So life is obviously, I mean busy there's, we've all got a lot going on. It's stressful. We may, you know, be going through huge trauma at the same time. And this podcast is really, and sort of help people find a bit of meaning some intentions that we can set for ourselves. I mean, you've touched on some of the practical tips about grief and I just wondered if you had anything that you could share just about how we can try and all keep ourselves at optimum level, encourage some positive energy, especially when you know, we, we are without doubt gonna face traumas and challenges along the road. What can you recommend? I know you do yoga, Sasha, which seems to be
Speaker 2:Yes, I do. And yeah, in fact, I've got a third book. This is just little postcard, cause it's not out yet. It's called yoga, saved my life. It's coming out on June the ninth in which I talk about the parallels between yoga and psychotherapy and how they're both actually doing the same thing. Just the via different mediums. Really.
Speaker 3:Wow. That sounds fantastic. How interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And if you look back at a philosophies, they're basically saying what modern day Western psych therapy is saying now, but just using slightly different vocab and coming it through slightly different channels. Yeah. And there a lot so S of yoga, but all also the elements of yoga and I've sort of touched on them already that that are embedded within the yoga philosophy, but you can take parts that better breathing and mindfulness. And the, one of the really strong principles of yoga is something called hemp, which is do no harm. And that involves not just not nonviolence to others, but also to. So if I was to sort of boil it all down into one thing, I would say compassion, which absolutely has to include self compassion, kindness, and self awareness, which enables you to keep yourselves at a, a level of sort of resonance. Really again, it come all comes back to so much, so much in neuroscience is again, proving what yogis have known for years about the absolute centrality of the nervous system and having the flexibility. We're all gonna fly off the handle or dropped down to helplessness scheduling, but having that flexibility to know when you've to state of calm and be able to bring yourself back to it and you can do that via internal self awareness, breathing meditation movement, knowing pets, knowing what kind of works for you, but also it's about social connection. Knowing the people that I'm nurturing to you, and the more you can sort of the irony counterintuitive is that the kinder you can be to yourself, the kinder you will be to others. Again, there's a whole load of research that says that self compassion, quite the opposite of being this sort of selfish thing that we all think it is, is actually a public service. Because if we can learn self compassion, we build our ability to be compassionate to others. Also being aware of your own care, taking proclivities that if you kind of the sort of person at the founding. So I must always look after others. Yes, of course we must. And that is a huge part of it. But actually you do that best by looking after your yourself. So I would say connection and awareness of yourself and of those around you. And if you can keep yourself calm and regulated and aware that will emanate out to others as well. And you will be able to sort of healthily infect those around you with a state of, um, I keep saying calm and I, I feel it's such a sort of like bland word, but a, a state of regulation where we're all just aware each other and be kind to each other in mutually beneficial ways. I think.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Some great tips there. I love those. Thank you. And congratulations on the book. That's gonna be very exciting. When's that June? Did you say
Speaker 2:The ninth? It will come out. Yes.
Speaker 3:And speaking of books, I mean, apart from your marvelous books, obviously I have mine here. I actually have to say thank you to you because I bought many copies of this and of the handbook as well, and I've been giving them a gift to people. And so, yeah, they've been super helpful. Thank you so much for those. Do you have any other books that have meant a lot to you in your life that you return to that have, um, that you could recommend to other people?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I mean, I've read a lot of textbooks obviously, but I suppose even more than that, cause they can be a little bit dense sometimes, which again is partly why I wrote the book to try and kind of say what they mean by this. If we put it in yoga, in therapeutic Western terms, a lot of Buddhist books growing up, I read a lot about Buddhism and that really spoke to me. So people like the Dai Lama and the Vietnamese Mount ti horn, they have been massively influential on me. And I think more since I, I became a Quaker of about 10 years or so ago. I mean, they're not, they're very kind of Buddhist adjacent for Quakers. There's a lot of similarities. And so I suppose nowadays alongside the sort of the Buddhist texts, the Buddhist teachers that I've just mentioned, I would read the quake of faith and practice, which is, oh, you know, our book of kind of suggestions and uh, wisdom down the ages of how to best take care. Again, it all comes back to the things I'm drawn to with those that say, take care of yourself and take care of others and put kindness and awareness at the forefront. Yeah. Any of the Del Lama books also, I mean actually Nelson Mandela, obviously his autobiography, I think it's called long walk to feed, but also he wrote a book with his daughter called I think it's just called the book of forgiveness. And again, it's similar messages in learning to forgive. And you, you know, you always think someone like Nelson Mandela who was prisoned by people for what was it, 25 years, if he can preach forgiveness thinking about the other person, then you know, what exclusive the rest of us got for not doing that really. Yeah. Those all quite heavy books. But I suppose if we're thinking about the ones that have been influential, otherwise I could go on for hours. I read a lot. So I could go on for hours and hours and hours about other books. But I guess as a collective, those sort books were people talk about their own experience of, of suffering and what they've learned from it and how they've come through it. And again, I, okay. We always get tripped up with language coming through in the sense of, we are all continually going through stuff, not coming through to get to a certain point, but the journey through that is ongoing. We are all works in progress. And I think understanding that and having compassion for ourselves that we're all works in progress and we're all gonna endlessly struggle, but bringing yourself back to a, a state of equanimity.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. They sound fantastic. You so much for sharing. I'm sure. Um, people are gonna enjoy them. I'll I'll pick some out of the ones that you mentioned and final question, Sasha, do you sort of, after everything that you've been through, I'm sure, you know, a lot of trauma could make you, you question things that, you know, question big questions, you know, why are we here? Do you have a thought about why we're here and what, what are purposes on this earth?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's such a hard one, but I think it's probably what I've been saying all along. It's about being here for yourself and being here for others. It's about trying to spread your own knowledge to others and of being able to absorb the knowledge of others and taking that on board. I think it's about learning to be kinder to yourself and to others and also to be kinder to the, the world and the planet and species that are not our own. And to understand that we are all connected and we are part of this, you know, huge environment of trees and fungi and animals and that we are not separate from them. And I think it's about grappling our way towards understanding that connectedness, you know, we think we're like, I can't remember who said this originally and I'm paraphrasing, but you know, we think we are these little islands, but underneath there's a, there's a land mass that we're all connected to just like, you know, trees all look separate. And then we now know that they're all connected by root systems below the grant. So it's just understanding that connection, I think, um, and doing whatever we can to promote that notion and to feel into that notion. So again, it's not just a cognitive thing, it's an embodied feelings of feeling of connection to others and doing what we can to enhance that and to help each other.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And what a lovely point to end on, um, thank you so much, SA I loved our conversation and thank you for being so open and so honest. And also, so it's a very practical as well, lots of practical advice, which I'm sure will help. So thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening to the good intentions podcast. You can find links to issues and to books that we discussed in the show notes, and you can look for the podcast on Instagram. It's good intentions, UAE. Please do make sure you subscribe to the podcast. And if you enjoy this conversation, I'd so appreciate a you on whatever platform you're using. It helps more people find out about the podcast. See you next time.